Well… my post the other day about what is commonly called the 3 fret rule seemed to ruffle a few feathers – and there’s nothing wrong with that.
But the most overwhelming comment appeared to be, “how about a video of this?”
So here you go…
At the end of the day, you need to be able to take the 5 boxes that we all learn and approach them either as a major or a minor sound. So the big takeaway from all of this is how to do that in a way that doesn’t require any extra mental steps and sounds good right “out of the box” (pardon the pun.)
105 replies to "The 3 Fret Rule – Part 2"
Great explanation. I like that I learn something every time I use your lessons Griff.
Hi Griff, This has been a great lesson for me! Struggled a bit with major & minor licks/sounds and this makes “simple” sense to me 🙂 Thanks & all the best.
Great lesson, Griff. I’m going to keep it and go over it. I think it’s important to give yoour fingers the memory as well as your head bone!
Both of the two possibilities have their advantages and disadvantages. Basically, I agree with Griff, but mind you:
Going three frets down gives you the advantage of having the chord nicely under your fingers (in the a-shape chord version) with its root note on the third fret. From there all the major pentatonic notes nicely lie under your fingers, no matter using the pattern 1 – notes or using pattern 2 by nicely sliding up to the g4th fret, g6th fret, b5th, b7th, e5th and e 7th.
Sorry for the mistake, instead of “… its root note on the third fret” it must read ” … third string (G)”, of course.
That was interesting…I watched 2 times…Great Lesson…Simple…
Looks to me like your preferred method is to slide Box 2 minor down 3 frets and superimpose it over the Box 1 minor shape for major tonality. What you end up with is a “Box 1” with both minor and major notes in it.
That’s what I do almost always when playing swing blues with predominately 6th or 9th chords…so the three-fret rule does work very well with box two being super-imposed on box one and indeed Griff confirms that in his video. A lot of Freddy King licks can be played with this mixed major-minor box pattern – Tore Down for example in the key of D.
It’s not a mental exercise at all, it’s an aural one. Play box one three frets down and very quickly your ear will tell you where the major root note is and how resolving to it just sounds right. And how bending the 2 to the flat 3 creates an interesting tension in the major scale. Then move up into the top end of box two three frets down, and suddenly it all comes together. That’s the way we should be playing everything anyway. Not fixed scale and lick patterns played without any reference to what our ears are telling us. Don’t be put off by Griff’s dislike of this technique – try it yourself – play around with the note choices over a I/IV/V chord progression and “new” licks will appear that “sound” right. Listen to Southern Rock bands like the Allman Brothers and Lynyrd Skynyrd and you’ll hear these licks…at least I do. Where I do agree with Griff is DO NOT THINK OF THIS AS AN F# MINOR PENTATONIC SCALE. Just take it for what it is – an A maj pentatonic pattern and learn how to use it. My rant over for the day anyway guys 🙂
I agree Roger. “ Shapes” are a visual aid, but music is an aural thing. You have to listen at some point.
Thanks for the video Griff. I agree for most people learning blues that’s the way to go because they are grounded in the box 1/2 minor position. However, if they are coming from a classical or jazz field they may be familiar with using the pentatonic major. But your way keeps the base note as the root which is good for soloing and lead. Keep up the good work! Ron
Thanks for taking the time to make this free video. I have been using the 3 fret down system forever and it has worked for me because I understand a fundamental theory of music. But the box 2 starting on the root has opened up a whole new way of playing around with the box 1 minor.
Hi Griff, You sure caught-up a bunch a fish in that fresh can-o-worms you opened up.I’m loven’ all this action in the Lake-O-Blogium. Keep up the good work.
God bless you and the rest of you string stretchers out there, fearless
Yep, I was right the 1st in that earlier comment. Keep on stretchin’.
God bless, fearless
Wow! A huge lightbulb just went off! That makes such perfect sense ! I struggled with that very issue forever! Thank you!
Thanks, Griff – I do understand more now why that sound was sometimes a bit off; I thought it was just me and my inexperience messing with my ears!
well done
I have your Slow Blues Supplement course, Mastering the Major and Minor blues sounds.. the course is excellent as usual and explains everything in detail.
All this seems to be taught in your Slow Blues Supplement course, which is excellent. Mastering the Major and Minor blues sounds..
My main problem is that the lower part of box 2 just doesn’t fall under the fingers as well as box 1, but there is a nice little house pattern on the top 3 strings which works well! I’m working on Merry go round by Peter Green & it starts pretty much there! 😎
My approach to sorting out the problem that Griff has with “ three back” is to jam to a backing that modulates between a major and its relative minor….in the same position. So the pattern of notes is the same, but there are two different scales in that one position. So I get used to resolving to each of the minor and major tonalities in one position. So if I then move from a minor to the major three down, I am comfortable playing to the major tonality in that position. The “boxes” are patterns that contain scales, or parts of scales if you are limited to pentatonic, and the different scales depend on where you start. That’s where the modes come from.
A great follow up to this would be a video showing why and where the root notes work when the band is on the 1, 4 and 5 chords.
That was GREAT. another easy trick….kinda like the root trick or thats what I call it…the root on the right is on the 3rd string up or from the low E string it is oposite from the high Estring . Right 3rd string and Left 4th string from low E string is oposite but still 3rd or 4th string…I am still learning where all the notes are but now I also noticed that with modes you are one note from end to get root note but another simple trick that I got to learn from Griff…GREAT TRICK
Griff I learned the three fret rule from you a while back now you say how much you dis like it? I’m a little taken back by this. Any way I just use shape two where shape one is played and I get the major.
I have always been confused by box number 1, 2 etc.
These boxes have names!
Your box 1 is aeolian, 2 is Ionian (which is the key, and the major scale) why is this one not box 1?
None of the excellent teachers that I have found on the net use the names rather than confusing numbers!
Is it because of their strange Greek names? Perhaps people think it’s not rock n roll to say mixolydian?
Having said that, I have figured out which number goes with which name now, so I’m OK .
Good teacher, Griff…..learnt lots from you.
I think you’re mistaken here, Jules. These aren’t diatonic scales at all, but rather pentatonics. The minor pentatonic has some of the notes of the aeolean scale, but not all. Likewise, the major pentatonic has some of the notes of the ionian, but not all.
And his “box one” is not a scale at all, but simply a pattern for playing a pentatonic scale. This can be either major or minor, depending where it is played relative to the key.
I nearly missed this, but I think it’s the most important part of this discussion….use box 2 of the F#M pentatonic scale, which starts on A, 6th string 5th fret, or on whatever A you choose to begin on. in this way you retain the tonal center which is A., but allow yourself to use the three notes that come along with the F#M scale; B, C# and F#. How you approach and resolve these notes along with the am pentatonic scale will make your solos more melodic and interesting. Thanks Griff.
I enjoy this theory,brilliant.
Excellent explanation. I LOVE theory because it makes sense. If I could make a living teaching theory I would. Your lessons with theory are my favorite. Please do more. Thank you. david a
a very fascinating lesson
very useful
That was a fantastic description of swapping between major and minor Griff. As a singer I could hear it wasn’t working using the 3 fret rule but didn’t know why or how to fix it. I just tried your box 2 and what a relief and so simple. Thanks for this outstanding video. It’s a pearl. Love the daily lessons. Keeps me up to the bit. Hope to be a guitarist one day. 😆
Such a good plan Griff.Just starting to get boxes down, can do this on the penatonic, just gotta work out which are the blue notes in box 2. Also loved the info you gave us on the difference between the pentatonic minor and pentatonic major scales eg 1 b3 4 5 b7 as opposed to 1 2 3 5 6.
Only relearning guitar after about 20 years, my brain gobbles up this practical theory. Even after only about 3-4 months into BGU my family and some friends are saying wow. Trust me they are deluded. But enjoying paying. Thanks ….
SORRY SEE NAME BOX PLEASE
I knew it 99! The old three fret trick.
Really Max?
Well,would you believe the old box 2 over the box 1, 99?
No Max.
Well.. How about box two major over box one minor.
That might be it max.
You know 99, that,s the second best trick i’ve picked up from siegfried.
Really Max?
What a great explanation,so simple . Thanks Griff
No d/l for this vid? Sad.
Kej’s FLV Retriever
I couldn’t see the type of Guitar your playing is it a Gretsch electriomatic ? Reason ? I have a 1981 Strat and Guitar instructor wants me to trade? Gretsch is in good shape Strat needs work but is very playable Any input would be great!Thanks
It’s a Gibson ES-335…Go with not the Gretsch. You won’t be sorry.
Absolutely 100% with you on this Griff. I’ve hated this trick for a long time, yet it’s widely taught in books, and all over the WWW. The approach I take is to know where to find the 2 and the 6 in the minor pentatonic boxes, and now we have the mixed major/minor scale under our fingers in any one place, which I’m sure is how the old blues guys like Freddie King and BB viewed it, and you hear it throughout their licks.
Great lesson Griff.
As a bit of an aside, what looper are you using?
Thanks, Bob.
Ditto
Griff..I have been using the BGU 2.0 for 10 to 11 months now, am on Lesson 18 to 22 now .The solo examples have taken me about 2 months to really get it. I am going slow and going back to refresh my memory of past lessons.I felt that it is sinking in,I have learned to strum very well and can play a lot of good songs.I divide my time on rhythm, chord clarity,timing , learning words to songs ,and of course my love to play my electric guitar and hear the blues.Griff,you really inspire me to keep going,I will learn to play a whole Blues song start to finish and sound good with your help .Thanks for the lessons.Gene
Gene
I feel your pain! To memorize those solo’s is a chore! Takes months to get them down & then if don’t play them every day, you forget parts. Better spending ptime on memorizing songs, chords, Rhythum & beat’s. The solo’s have to many rests, pulloffs, bends & 1/8th + 1/16th + 16th + 1/8th. Ain’t no way
Gene
Been doing BGU 2.0 for a while now. I realized I would never learn the entire solos, I’m too old, lol. anyway I just learn my favorite licks until I have them under my fingers then put them in other songs. I was playing sweet home chicago acoustically with a buddy and started using licks from one of the BGU solos. It sounded great. I have bought several courses from Griff and I do this with all of them. It works really well in a 12 bar blues.
Fantastic stuff as always Griff…your videos are a great help and extremely enjoyable, thank you.
Terrific. A slippery concept made crystal clear.
What Griff demonstrated allows you to play major and minor in the same area of the fretboard without having to go down or up 3 frets. You can start both A major and A minor from the 5th fret on the 6th string. You can also do it from any A on the fretboard, which is what the course is all about. It’s a great course.
Happens to be right where I am at in my studies. Another single lesson, alone, worth all the money I’ve spent so far.
THANKS !!!! This is awesome!
Can’t wait to give thanks to you when I collect my Grammy.
My takeaway: moving three frets takes you from an A minor pattern to an A major pattern, but you also need to take into account that the location of the roots (A) have changed. Otherwise, you are really “still thinking” F# minor instead of A major.
Thank you. This is the stuff, or one of the things that I have been studying. Trying to learn the neck. “But” you went from box 1 fifth fret up to the big M. then back down two frets to box 2. What if you had gone down to the little m .would you still choose box 2 ???
Hi Griff,
that is why I love Your free lessons (I guess I bought three ). There is so much meat on the bone … keep going …I dont
think You loose any costomer by “revealing to much” for free.
Interesting and helpful as usual. Many thanks
Excellent! For me, some major sounds are easier for me to start with the minor pent 3 frets down. For example, C Maj seems to allow me more latitude before getting into the high register if I begin in A min Pent box. I like to keep in the higher strings following your suggestion about chords. The lower tones can step on the base and key boards. I am trying to learn the notes of the scales and the roots, but not much success as I have chronic illness hard to concentrate mentally. Yet, intuitively I seem to hit the right notes when moving back and forth from the root box. Anyway, this was a very helpful lesson as to why it is more difficult to play box 1 for the Major sound. I only recently began using it and took some time to get the right tones. Lessons are excellent. I save them all.
Hey Griff,
Great demo in a video but I am now quite confused. Especially with all the comments here it looks like everyone is looking for the missing pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. You may have opened a can of worms. After all as you said it is not important to know it as at The End of the Day we all want to just play Blues Guitar. Maybe you might like to make a special offer for which of your courses shows in more detail HOW THIS ALL WORKS. Such as your Major & Minor Blues Shapes.
I like what Brad Carrier said… Is there a simple Chart or TAB showing where each Box fits & slides to and from Major & Minor. I stumbled quite a bit to play the 5 Boxes in each minor Keys. Someone here said when a Band says we are playing in key of A do we ask if it’s minor or Major.
I think it may even be better to simply learn the song and the Key it will be sung in. Then match the Licks or Solos as per the song.
This video looks good but I am confused, maybe as a Beginner advanced, I need to be at Intermediate Advanced to understand this?
Michael-Sydney-Australia Feb 2016
bit confusing , i dont know the reason, second time listening ,
will continue to listen another time.
if any mistake’s in writing sorry am french and dont have many occsssion’s to use english.
bye , have a nice day
lucien pregent .’.
Thanks Griff
You should of demonstrated Box 1, starting on the Root A instead of the F#, it’s then the same notes as Box 2. Follow the notes, sane octaves as Box 2. You can play Majior & Minor using Box 1 in that position!
Jeffrey Goblirsch
Same Box. Left facing is Majior. Right facing Minor
Example: A on 12 fret 5th string
4 Box Left facing is Major, Right facing 4 box Is Minor
Verry, verry nice explanation, theory is important too
Thanks Griff, Just another piece in the puzzle…
Excellent video demo as usual Griff! Your down-to-earth relaxed style of teaching is so much more student friendly than some of your online “competition” 🙂 🙂
Griff” you really explain things well. I have got a better
understanding of it.
now I can play with more control.
Thanks.
Very Cool! Very Helpful! Thank You!
Great explanation. It would help me a lot if you could go through the scales slowly at first. Your fingers are too fast for my eyes to see what your doing.
Griff uses box 2 to play the major. Drop that down 3 frets to play that major using the relative minor in box 1. But he doesn’t play the major in box 1 and instead moves to box 2. Griff, do you ever play the major pentatonic in box 1? It’s there, but as Griff says, we’re used to playing that box rooted on the 6th string, 1st finger. Do we then avoid box 1 for major or do we get used to the sound and feel of rooting it on the 6th string using the pinky finger?
OK so far, but what gets me is how bands start a song saying “It’s in A.” Which A, A major, A minor, or A mixolidian (the blues scale using a major 3 and a flatted 7)? And if we figure out which A scale they’re using, what can we play against it or not? I get the use of soloing a minor scale over a major chord backing, but not much beyond that. Would a flat 7 go well against a major 7 chord? Would a major 3 fit against a minor chord. Is there a simple chart or memory device for these options?
Yes, to use box 1 major, use your pinky on 6th string to start box 1 which is the first root note in that box. Then find the other A’s (3rd string first finger and 1st string pinky). There are three root note spots in box 1 and that applies to both major and minor – but they are in different spots. U have to learn how to resolve to the root note and when u do, it will sound awesome!! Good luck
Very good explanation – thank you! Overtime I see one of these lessons on major / minor sounds, I always learn something new that I had never thought of before! This lesson was no exception!
Hey Griff! need a razor? thanks for the video
Enough said, got it,
mental note 1) learn where your root note(s) is on the fretboard.
mental note 2) learn and play your scale (minor, major, pentatonic, pentatonic blues) notes both below and above the root note position
mental note 3) recognise there is an exact correlation between your scale notes and box positions
Put on your backing track (looper) in the key of your root note, and then mash it all up on the fretboard
Am I now mentally in tune ?
I’m still confused…you said going from Major to minor (M-m), go DOWN 3 frets. What you demonstrated was going from a minor (Am) DOWN to a F#m. Wouldn’t the relative Major to an Am be the C? (UP 3 frets?)
It sure is a bit confusing however I think I get the three frets down thing – it’s going down from A minor pentatonic box 1 down to A Major pentatonic box 1 (which also happens to be F sharp minor). Stand to be corrected by someone who knows better.
Yes.
Sorry this is meant to be the answer to the entry above
Excellent explanation Griff. I’m a lot of mental light bulbs went off for a lot of Forum folks I would guess. It re-enforced in me what I have learned from you over the course of the last couple of years. THANKS!
I first learned that 3 fret position many many years ago when breaking down Jimi Hendrix songs. That’s a position he used for a whole lot of nice hammer ons, partial chords, slides, bends, etc. It’s also very good for country licks. It was one of those eureka moments in my journey. In learning it that way, I knew where the roots notes were, the 3rds, 5ths, 7ths, passing tones, which notes to bend, etc at that position. I didn’t learn it by sliding down the fingering from the 1st blues pentatonic position.
If you slide the 1st position pentatonic fingering up 2 frets from A, it puts you in the major of the 4th (D). Up 2 more frets and it puts in in the major of the 5th (E). But if you’re locked into blues bar fingering patterns and don’t see the root and the other important notes in the key from those positions, you will get yourself into trouble by just sliding a fingering pattern around, as Griff points out. That’s seeing the fretboard as fingering patterns instead of seeing where the important notes are. Fingering patterns are a great way to get started, but they can also box you in (pun intended) if that’s the only way you see the fretboard.
Thank you, Griff, for doing what you do best by demonstrating on the guitar the point you were trying to make about the 3 Fret trick. I think that you already demonstrated how to switch from minor to major pentatonic without climbing the fret board in your clips on this particular solo-ing device. I also appreciated your explanation of the use of the terms you use because words are a poor substitute for sounds when explaining music.
Griff set out to explain the downside of the “3 fret trick ” and did so.
To go further with the A Major – A minor thing refer to Griff’s email of 12-10-15.
I found it easiest to learn Box 1 and box 2. Play the A Major pentatonic scale in both boxes. Look at the root note positions. Play the A minor pentatonic scale in both boxes. Look for the root note positions. Listen to the difference. Think A.
Thanks Griff. Great stuff
Hi Griff. Great stuff. Thanks for that.
It’s funny that this has come up right now, because I’ve been doing some work on the boxes and trying to get a handle on them. After all, we use pentatonic so there is only 5 notes to think about instead of 12, but then with major and minor boxes, then the Blues boxes we end up with 20 boxes of 5 notes. This is without adding the Pentatonic 6 and House Boxes etc. So I tried to rationalise them to help me with the learning process and get some clarity. (For me that is) So working from your “Blues In A Box 2”, Encyclopaedia (note English spelling) of Scale Patterns, I firstly took all the pentatonic scales and added a small red dot where all the “Blue Notes” occur. This enabled me to “throw away” the 11 Blues Scale diagrams. This means I have all the information in a smaller space which is easier to scan, but the colour coding of the blue notes means I ignore the red dots or not, depending which scale I want.
What I did then was to put the scales in pairs that have the same Root Note positions. Eg Minor Pentatonic Box 1 with Major Pentatonic Box 2, as the root notes for both boxes are in the same positions on the 6th, 4th and 1st strings. Did the same with pairing Minor Pentatonic Box 2 with Major Pentatonic Box 3 since again the Root Notes are in the same positions on the 4th and 2nd strings. I repeated this idea for the other equivalent 3 pairings. This enables me to go from major to minor and back again in the same position just as you show with your example in the video, and makes it very easy to avoid the 3 fret rule. Because I’ve tried the three fret rule in the past but always dropped it as I could never make it work.
Now I know this all sound hellishly complicated in words and if I could have sent you my diagrams it would have made it a thousand times easier. After all,”A picture’s worth a thousand words” as the saying goes.
Anyway, hope it’s of some help to someone. My sincere thanks and appreciation for all the help you’re giving me. I’ll get there you know!
Best wishes
Roger
It does sound “hellishly complicated” but cut to paragraph 2. It’s the simple approach. Start on string 6 A, play the A minor pentatonic scale box 1 up to string 1 A. Now play the Major pentatonic scale box 2 back down to string 6 A.
It seems to me that as long as you keep track of the root note when changing box positions you will be good.
Excellent Griff! Very detailed. Important stuff for all Blues players!
A teacher that does not play guitar would never understand this consept. They are valuable, but if the blues is ones passion. Seak out a blues guitarest teacher
Sometimes I confuse myself because I think of Am blues and the chord shape for Am versus A maj and wonder why we are strumming a 1,4,5 progression using the 6th string root A. Or, more confusing an A7.
But, if I line up the A scale and under the scale start a 2nd line only showing the notes for the minor sound pentatonic and then a third line showing only the major sounding notes it starts making more sense. The difference being the notes from the A scale that we select
Amin pentatonic = 1, b3, 4, 5 and b7th.
Amaj pentatonic = 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6.
Looking at the chord shapes gives even more insight
Amaj chord = 1,3,5 or A, C# and E
Amin chord = 1,b3,5 or A, C and E
Hence a pentatonic sound that is minor versus a pentatonic sound that is major.
Thank goodness I don’t have to understand what he taught on this video!!
What one needs to understand is that a piece of music has what is called a root note or tonic or tonal center that it sort of “revolves around” or “gravitates to”. For example, “A” is that note for A major or A minor. From that understanding it is a small step to realise for example that the pentatonic shape 1 for can be used as a major or a minor scale depending on which note you pick as the root or tonic. In other words it is the sequence in which you play the notes that decides the sound. You choose major or minor sound by what you play.
Hi fello guitarists,
For anybody struggling with these concepts, or for those wanting to know more, I would recommend doing yourselves a favour and purchasing a copy of Griffs major & minor blues shapes course, I haven’t looked back since purchasing it about 6 months ago, really takes your playing to a whole new level, Griff has made these lessons very enjoyable & easy to follow.
That was a very well thought-out and delivered explanation, friend Griff.
Thank you!
I believe that you’ve now positioned yourself for the inevitable follow-up explanation of some ‘when & where’ choices, as to placing these minor/major color options…
…Please do.
-careful what you explain, brother… :o]>
I don’t know a lot about boxes pentatonic scale’s blues scales major or minor scales is there a course that I can get to understand it more ?
Thanks Rob S
Major flavour over a I chord, minor flavour over IV and V chords I think is correct, anyone feel free to jump in an correct me for a major blues sound.
Thanks, I have struggled with that over the years I have been playing. Keeping track of the key while switching is hard, but like you said listening for the sound rather than looking at the box makes it easier
Nice explaination of what works and why…when I got my head wrapped around this concept (it was one of your courses), it opened my playing a lot…thanks…
Shedding light on it very well I must say . Nice job
still working on this theory . did you say that at some point one might use a F# over the A7 cord . I think I see this ,but , one must stick to the tonal center of the 1st cord . Which would mean a different box . Humm!
What kind of guitar are you planning?
Gibson ES-335
Thanks Griff. Nicely summarizes the core concepts. Thanks also for clarifying your use of the term “blues sounds”.
Cheers
When you say box 2 which box 2? Box 2 of A minor pentatonic or box 2 of F sharp major pentatonic?
I think you’re thinking about box 2 of F sharp minor pentatonic which is also box 2 of A major pentatonic. I stand to be corrected by someone who knows better.
This is a lesson a long time coming and clears up a lot of confusion about the major and minor scales.A book titled ‘Everything about playing Blues ‘ has some good scale diagrams demonstrating what you have covered.
The page opened but no video. I’m a MAC user.
Thanks for the video Griff, and as many folk know it does take a bit of thinking to get your head around how to play Major and minor, and the best thing to do it take it in small steps until the concept sinks in. So I focus on one selected key position, any key will do, and play minor (Box 1) off ALL the root notes then play Major (Box 2) of all the same route notes. When you recognise the concept it is so easy you wonder what the issues was. Cheers.
One thing that has helped me enormously is your Major Minor Blues Shapes course.
the title was “moving from the major to the minor and vice versus” But you never actually demonstrated this?
thats the best explanation I have ever heard,,thank you Griff