I make a big deal about counting… a REALLY big deal.
But this is the blues we’re talking about around here and I get a good number of “You’re supposed to just feel the blues… if you spend all your time ‘1 and 2 and 3 and..’ it’s all going to sound stale and lifeless.”
And that statement is actually completely right-on, but it doesn’t help 99% of the people who are trying to learn to play the guitar.
So let’s see if we can clear up some misconceptions shall we?
But before we do, I want you to think of the timing and beats of the music as the frame of a building…
If you hang the drywall on the walls and there is no frame, will they stay there? No.
And if you hang the drywall on the walls with no frame, will they arrange themselves nice and orderly the way there are supposed to look? Or will they tend to be somewhat randomly placed?
So beats, timing, counting, rhythm, whatever you want to call it, that’s the framework that gives you a place to hang your notes.
Now there are some God-gifted people who have a wonderful built-in “inner clock” that allows them to innately know both where the beat is and what beat they are on in the grand scheme of things.
In other words, they just “feel” where beat 3 of a measure is and can naturally tap their foot, bob their head, or otherwise internalize the rhythmical pulse of the music.
Then, there’s everyone else (meaning almost everyone else on the planet.)
For 99 out of 100 students I teach, that inner clock has to be cultivated and developed through some patience and a little discipline.
And that means counting, and lots of it.
The goal of counting is to not need to count anymore, just like the goal of my teaching is to get you to where you don’t need me anymore.
It’s a process to be sure. And not one that happens overnight by any means.
Will things sound slow and somewhat stale if you are counting out loud as you play? Yes.
Over time will you need to count out loud less because you can feel the beat better? Yes.
How will you know when that happens? If you don’t know, keep counting.
Will you learn faster (a lot faster) overall if you spend the time to count out loud now even though it seems really tedious at first? Yes.
Do you (meaning me) still count? Yes and no…
There are 2 times when I’ll count as I play – 1) when the beats get funny because there is a bar that doesn’t have 4 beats and the timing is really awkward. Usually I have to count that through a few times until I get the feel down. I won’t have to do it forever and this situation pretty much never happens in blues, only jazz or rock for me.
When I have to keep track of a certain number of bars (measures.) I can feel groups of 4, 8, or even 16 pretty well just on feel because it happens so often. But every once in a while there will be a song with 9 measures of something. That’s not going to come naturally so I’ll have to keep track.
Now in my case, I do that in my head because I can – but there are times when I move my lips too.
Do other professional guitar players still count? Absolutely. Some lean on it more than others, but counting is essential to musicians of all levels and styles.
At the end of the day, you have to listen to what’s coming out of your guitar. If you’re playing all the notes but it still isn’t sounding like the music… then you may want to look at the counting.
When a student comes to me and plays the notes, but it still doesn’t sound good, it is ALWAYS the timing that is the issue.
So, as I like to say, if it’s hard for you to count out loud while you play – then you need it. And if you don’t need to count anymore, you’ll know it.
111 replies to "Counting Vs. Feeling"
There may be an uber serious need to count if you’re;
1. Right Handed
2. White
3. = Probably 100% of all commenting here.
Truth has become the enemy in the 21st century.
Peace
hey Griff,
Now with your Blog today you answered a question that I have wanted to ask for a long time, How do you keep track of the Number of Bars/ Measures for the comping and eventually the Guitar solo and back to comping. Your explanation here made it so obvious. Thank You.
I have been with BGU/you since 2013 and I have the Count out loud imbedded especially for all the BGU Courses I now have. Even being a past semi-pro Drummer in many bands such as Pop, Rock n Roll, Soul & Blues during the 60’s, I still need to count when playing the electric guitar especially when doing an email lesson or a DVD lesson of a BGU course. One thing is when you do the demo in the video slow and fast you Always count in and that is what I have within me. Timing is crucial.
Great Blog
Michael-Sydney -Australia 14 June 2018.
GRIFF,
STUDIES SHOW THAT AROUND ONE IN TEN THOUSAND PEOPLE HAVE PERFECT PITCH, BUT A PERSON WITH TRUE PERFECT TEMPO PROBABLY DOESN’T EXIST NOW SOME PEOPLE MAY BE ABLE TO PICK DRUMMING UP QUICKER THAN OTHERS, BUT PERFECT OR NEAR PERFECT RHYTHM COMES FROM A LOT OF PRACTICE COMBINED WITH COUNTING SKILLS.
THANKS GRIFF FOR EVERYTHING YOU DO TO HELP THOSE OF US WHO PLAY GUITAR PLAY BETTER.
OLD SCHOOL & STILL ROCKIN’
Counting is essential to
knowing where to come in on a pickup note, like “born on a bad sign” 2 and.
Putting in rests where they belong.
For odd time signatures, I break them up. I’ve done some of these in theater music.
5/4 count 13212 12312
7/4 count 1212123 1212123 or if the emphasis is on a different beat, 1231212 1231212
Put some emphasis on the 1 but keep the beat constant
that’s a good example for straight time but not for shuffle.
that was supposed to be a reply to Jeff and the indian war drums
timing… essential to laying down the groove…I’ve heard from music teachers that timing is mostly “caught” rather than” taught”, but I concur.. you must start with the basics… count now, so later on, you’ll naturally” catch on”… keep up the great work griff…btw.. it was a wonderful experience jamming with you when you visited Austin!!
Sorry I made a mistake .. I said
1-ee-ah when it should have been 1-and-ah
I think the biggest thing I have learned from Griff over the years
has been the way counts triplets…
I myself learned probably the way most people do by counting them as
1 tri -pil-let… don’t get me wrong.. that is a good way to do it.
What I learned from watching Griffs videos is he would count it like this
1- ee- ah 2-ee-ah etc.. I don’t know why? but for some reason counting his way
really solidified the feel of the triplet for me anyways.
Thanks Griff !
What many people call “feel” is really the result of years and years of counting beats, screwing up, making embarrassing mistakes in front of an audience, and learning how painful that is. “Feel” isn’t winging it because you’ve “got the touch.” It’s the result of a heck of a lot of hard work learning from mistakes.
With you 100% griff my counting is still weak after 50 years of playing but the more I work on it the better my playing and feel gets
bit like the more broccoli I eat the better my health gets
WELL PLAYING PROFESSIONALY FOR 50 + YEARS, I’M ONE OF THE LUCKY ONES TO HAVE MY OWN INNER CLOCK.
LIKE STEVIE WONDER. BEING IN THE MUSIC BUSINESS YOU MEET MANY GREAT MUSICIANS. I MT STEVIE WONDER AND ASKED WHY YOU MOVE SIDE TO SIDE WITH YOUR HEAD AND BODY? HE TOLD ME IT KEEPS THE BEAT LIL BRO!
I CAN COUNT OUT LOUD, BUT ONLY PLAYING RHYTUM GUITAR. IF I’M PLAYING AND SINGING, I LISTEN TO THE DRUMMER AND JUST MOVE MY SOUL TO THE BEAT. PLAYING LEAD, OR SOME LICKS WITH THE OTHER LEAD GUITAR, I LISTEN TO THE BASS PLAYER. IT’S THE FEEL YOU GET INSIDE YOUR GUT AND HEAD.
SO COUNT OUT LOUD, IF YOU NEED TOO. IF YOUR NOT IN TIME!
OOPS! “think”
Excellent dissertation there Griff. I thing you really drove the point home. I’m sure this will help all of us.
Thanks,
DaveyJoe
6/1/18
I am an 82 year old aspiring guitar player. I have been taking lessons from several different teachers during the last 6 years. None, I mean none, insisted that I count, until my last one. My rhythm is finally improving. I feel like I wasted 5 years of lessons because of not counting.
If you think Griff is being overly focused on counting (as a foundation for the blues), just listen to some old Emily Remler Discs on learning Bebop & Swing Guitar. Now there was someone who was really fixated on counting.
Griff said “There are some God-gifted people that just “feel” where beat 3 of a measure is and can naturally tap their foot, bob their head, or otherwise internalize the rhythmical pulse of the music.”
I always thought it was the first beat of the bar that received the emphasis. Anyone care to explain why he mentions beat three?
He just picked beat 3 as an example. He could have said 1,2 or 4, i.e. some people can “feel” where each beat is.
Number 9, Number 9, Number 9. Number 9. Does that “count” ? :>) Hahahaha.
Everyone playing together, Timing is what keeps it all together…a 1 and a 2 and a 3….. or it’s just notes randomly played, just noise
Hi Griff,
Like many, I feel my way into the time and divisions of four seem to come entirely naturally. Where I struggle is with counting time signatures which are not common time. Please would you give us some tips on how to count out, or clap, 5/4 or 7/8 respectively, so that I can develop the ‘feel’ with practice.
Different time sig’s can be challenging. Listen to the drummer (like Joe Morello on Brubeck’s Take 5). He accents the 1 & 4.
Unusual time signatures are always able to be broken into blocks of common times. 5/4 may be expressed as a 3 plus 2 (or 4 eighths). Think about that as you listen to the piece, and the accents should give you clues as to how to subdivide.
Sixteenth notes can be counted 1-ee-and-uh. But what is a good way to count 32nds?
You’re right Griff, counting never goes away. If it wasn’t important, we wouldn’t need someone to count in the song. It doesn’t matter how experienced the band members are, someone needs to start the metronome in everyone’s heads. Then it’s our job (as individuals) to keep it going.
I improvise alot now and mimic the sounds so this counting thing I am still trying to learn…I can’t even figure out how to use a metrodome…I cannot read music and always have played by ear…hear it and GET INTO THE ZONE. I even try what I heard Griff say about he use to try to play what he heard on the radio and he counts but he must play by ear also…I know he talks so much about it but still learning this beat thing….
Try to imagine an Indian drum (native American, that is). Maybe it’s a war dance…
ONE and two and THREE and four and
ONE and two and THREE and four and
The capitalized numbers are “accented” (emphasized, counted louder than the others)
Now think of Chuck Berry’s opening riff on Johnny B Goode
ONE and two and THREE and four and
ONE and two and THREE and four and
Sing the notes to Chuck’s riff using the “count” as the words.
If you can do that, you “get” the essence of counting. It gets a little more involved than this example, but basically, that’s it.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…….just play, otherwise we’ll bore ourselves to death
Just as mussel memory has to be developed so does the internal clock,so get counting!
I’ve been playing piano and singing (and some guitar) for many years, and the inbuilt clock does work well. But, sometimes when I’m doing something new, and a phrase doesn’t flow naturally, I do have to take it apart slowly and then I count. Out loud. Until the rhythm of the phrase is clear and then I can take it back up to speed.
Totally agree with Griff that the inbuilt clock develops with practice, and the vast majority of players with issues you see at jams have issues with timing. I see a huge number of musicians who get up and play whose fingers and skills are highly proficient, but don’t achieve what they should be capable of because their timing is poor.
Love these blog forums, thanks to all
There are several very long emails in this reply – so I’ll just say that pretty much everything else that Griff gives us is spot on. So when he continually emphasises the need to count – well we’d be fools not to listen and take it on board. Agreed?
I find my timing is both natural and spot on. The problem I have is my expensive metronome wanders erratically.
I’ve got one of them! Doesn’t wait for me or anything!🤣
I guess I’m lucky to be one of those people who can just feel it. I have always been able to keep the beat and the timing in a song and I see it as a blessing. However there are times, like in a 7/8 thing, I might have to count out loud. And that’s when the wheels fall off. It’s like tapping your head and rubbing your stomach at the same time. I tend to lose the feel. Fortunately those songs don’t often come up.
Ive been in Rock, Reggae, Blues and Country bands and never had the need to count. Just lucky I guess. I have that clock inside! Like I said, it’s a blessing.
Timing is everything! Obviously counting gets you in and out at the right time, and keeps your notes in the right place, but what about keeping a steady tempo? I was VERY resistant for a long time, but I’ve finally starting practicing with a metronome, and it has helped in all things counting and timing related. Lot of free metronome apps out there!
As always thanks for sharing your wisdom with all us pickers!
I TAKE PRIVATE GUITAR LESSONS,BGU IS SOMETHING I DO ON THE SIDE LINES BECAUSE IT WORKS MY GUITAR TEACHER IS ALL ABOUT COUNTING AND TAPING YOUR FOOT DIDNT MAKE SENSE AT FIRST BUT NOW IT DOES
Griff, your statement
“The goal of counting is to not need to count anymore, just like the goal of my teaching is to get you to where you don’t need me anymore.”
is just not sinking in with some on the forum.
Any mention of being able to just feel the beat or even any implication that maybe that ability might be a good thing is met by a tirade on the value of counting meant to diss any suggestion that one can just feel the beat or that one should even strive to do so. Even when posting this blog and pointing directly to that statement they will accuse one of “cherry picking” and/or “taking it out of context”.
It is so bad that one cannot even mention feeling the beat or making any implication of doing so without generating an argument that most often results in the thread being locked down.
As the saying goes, “If you don’t know where you’re going you will end up somewhere else”. I feel it is essential that every student knows where they are going, in other words what the real goal of all the counting they are doing really is. I also believe that the ability to just feel the beat is probably one of the most important abilities any guitar player can have! I feel that what is going on is a disservice to the entire forum.
Those people just are not getting it from this blog, so perhaps they need another more forceful one?
If you can “feel” what you are learning without counting, great!
But I would suggest this. If you’re having trouble picking it up, if you “count” within the spots where you’re having trouble, you’ll pick it up faster than if you continue to try to learn it by “fee”.
Just got back from Oahu Hawaii where I learned the Latterday Saints (Mormon don’t you know) have a music educational program that traces
the art to its origin which is “chants” The program is co-ed and both male and female dorms were charged with developing chants of their own. The female chant was “MORE MEN”–the male chant was “Bring em Young”. I follow your tutelage regularly and appreciate greatly your efforts.
Yesterday I picked up my guitar. Sat in my usual chair and could not find the fret board…. I have been working on “Wonderful Tonight” and day before yesterday I sounded some what like Clapton… Yesterday I sounded an like me…. So I went back to Killer Blues Solos Made Easy because of the counting… I always go back because of the counting
This definitely clears it up Griff. Thanks!
NEVER EVER LEARNED MUSIC THERORY. I TRIED TO LEARN SHEET MUSIC AND HOW TO WRITE IT. JUST DID NOT STICK. WHEN I STARTED OUT PLAYING GUITAR , I USED A METRONOME. I HAD TO PLAY GUITAR AND SING AT THE SAME TIME. SO I NEVER HAD TO LEARN TO COUNT OUT LOUD. THAT INNER BEAT I DEVLEOPED OVER TIME. IN THE STUDIO WE HAD OUR SOUND MAN SLAP TO WOOD DOWLS TOGETHER TO KEEP THE BEAT. SO IT DOES TAKE TIME FOR IT TO COME NATURAL.
I have a harder time reading timing than notes. I can feel the beat, and love syncopation, but when I try to count I lose the feel. Same with reading notes. I can enjoy playing a Chopin piece on the piano, but only if I keep it in my hands. As soon as I falter and try to look up the notes or timing, I get hopelessly lost from the piece. Only careful reading and repetition gets it back in my hands where I can enjoy it. So I like Griff’s advice: no it’s not fun but do it anyway till it’s natural.
I can’t say that I come by timing naturally, but music fascinated me long before I ever picked up a guitar with serious intentions, and I recall having fun with pieces with an odd time signature, trying to count out the beats. I’ll discover unusual time signatures in both some obvious places (early Dave Brubeck albums – Time Out and Time Further Out for example) but also in some places where you don’t expect it – like much of Pink Floyd’s “Money” which is in 7/8 time).
Maybe it’s been doing that for 40+ years that has helped me develop my internal clock, but to Griff’s point, it was those counting exercises that probably did the trick…
I always disliked Pink Floyd’s “Money,” though I cherish every other piece on “Dark Side of Moon,” (especially lately “Us and Them” for it’s interesting chords). It’s an annoying song on an annoying topic, but learning that it is built of 7 beats helps me realize another reason I find it annoying.
Try this count for “Money”
One Two Three Four Five Six Sev-en
The “en” in Sev-en is the “and” (I think) It works for me, anyway.
The solo section of “Money” is 4/4 so if your counting seven there your going to have trouble
Try playing Dave Brubeck’s “Take Five” which is in 5/4, or some of the sections of Genesis “Supper’s Ready” in 9/8!
When I first started my teachers told me I have perfect timing. A gift for sure. I’m always learning new stuff and counting helps you get there. Then the feeling takes over and the stuff starts flying. Who knows where it comes from. Some say God. Griffs videos have helped me get there. Thanx
TIMING is everything. And I really don’t think it’s a question of count OR feel – I think they’re the same thing. What you’re feeling, IS the count, and what you’re counting is the feel (of the song). Semantics, count/feel, rhythm/beat.
I think READING MUSICAL NOTATION is really important because it tries to shows you what to count and when (for you counting freaks!), though I know lots of guitar players (me included) don’t read fluently.
When my guitar teacher asked me sing along to what I was playing, I freaked (cuz “I can’t sing”). When I said no, he said, “then what the hell are you listening too in your head while you’re playing?!” He wasn’t really asking me to sing, he wanted me to count (using the words instead of numbers). I then realized I didn’t count “formally,” but I did a whole lot of “da-da da-da-dada.” Somehow, you have to find the RHYTHM (TIMING)…COUNT on it!
By Jove, I think you’ve got it.
And if you hit a couple of rests in a row, I’m thinking you might bob your head or tap your foot in those spots to fill in for singing those “silent” beats.
Specific example: Been play for years and don’t have to count everything. Just yesterday however was working on learning and acoustic Clapton song. Some of his lead sections are so fast (the nick name Slow-Hand had to have been someone’s tongue in cheek remark at some point in the past)that I have to slow them down sometimes to get them note for note. Yesterday I knew I had all of the notes right. I played it with the slowed down recording and it was on point. When I turned everything off to play it myself though it just wasn’t right. I went back and started the recording at full speed four measures in front of that specific section and found that I had slowed it down so much that I thought it was starting on 2 (and)but it was actually starting on 4 (and). When I went back and played it solo counting from 4 (and), BAM, right in the pocket! I only had to count through 3 times and once the correction was made internally, I could feel it and didn’t have to count it again. So just like Griff said, if you know the notes are right but still doesn’t sound quite right, stop and count it a couple of times. It’s the old joke about the right inf-ass-is on the wrong si-lal-able. I hope that encourages someone that you don’t have to count everything all of the time, just until you get it right. Because if it’s wrong, you don’t want to be putting it out there in front of anyone… Thanks Griff! You are right on the money every single time!
This one’s got to be a no-brainer. ALL musicians count, before the music starts. Makes sense to think that continuing to count would only be smart, or else you’d possibly lose count. 🙂
counting has ALWAYS been a prob for me.(been playing for 60 yrs) but with Griff’s advice i am getting better. i play in 3 bands and still come unstuck,particularly on new tunes. my recovery is aided by knowing the material,but should not happen if you are really switched on. i have to make a real effort to count probably because i have bad habits that i have honed over the years.
from an old geezer take a hint AND COUNT IT!
i owe my impending improvements to Griff.
hey i really think this counting stuff is right but some cannot do it . i really have never done that . what i have done is jam to something i want know . tapping the foot has been what i do and find myself doing it more often . being serious about attempting to write or play something never done well maybe then i may count out . blew off a jam with the band the other nite because of the drummer being absent . sometimes maybe then counting could be used . now i always ask myself why the bass and second guitar sound not so good . its because they do not count. i actually jam with 3 guitars and myself thats 4 and 1 bass . no one counts and no metradome . why? when i am not there they pratice but i can hear them and its not so good . i am the lead and without me it is not the same . not boasting but have been told we are great but without me they are toast . been told i have a natural beat built in guess it started when given a single drum stick and just beat it on a table or whatever at 6 or so. i like to say that if you learn rythem first well and do it with some piece of music you know and do it till your fingers bleed then maybe you can stop counting . the very first piece of music i learned was house of the rising sun at the age of 12 . had learned to sing at school, read music also . singing to music can be benificial in absence of counting . the music seems to flow well over singing . soap box is not holding my weight i will have to get off it now .
I have a number of your courses. The blues solo course contains the count in the tab.. It’s really helpful as it precludes having to back up and rerun the video over and over . I suggest that you add this to future material. Thx Rich
Thanks Griff for again stating the importance of counting. This is something I discovered years ago and still practice often, especially when learning and playing unfamiliar material, be it blues or any other style of guitar music. As an exercise try counting flamenco guitar music!
Griff, I no longer need to count except VERY rarely, but I am not one of those God-gifted people either. I got there by way of 12 years of music training in the grades and high school where it was count, count and more counting, and then 10 years in working bands playing classic rock and country. That grades and high school training was playing trumpet. It is impossible to count out loud while playing a trumpet or to even count with your lips. So learning to count mentally was essential. Somewhere along the line even the thought of “1, 2, 3, 4” disappeared and I found that I do have a very reliable “internal clock” and can in fact just feel the beat. I believe EVERYone will get to that point sooner or later.
Hi Griff, I’ve been “fooling around” with guitars, both electric and acoustic, for oh, about 50 years or more off and on, more off than on as I love it but never got anywhere until I bought BGU several months ago. The point of my mail is counting. In one of my favorite acoustic songs there is a simple walk up from verse to chorus and walk down from chorus to verse. I figured I would try to incorporate that into my simple finger picked version. I struggled until I slowed it way down and, for the first time ever, counted it out beat by beat, I figured out exactly what beat the walk up and walk downs should start on and figured out the transition fingering and now am training my 66 y.o. fingers to make the new moves. I’ve started applying the counting to everything now and everything is going better. Thanks a million times over for being a great teacher. Ken
Hi, your advice to count has been so helpful to me. If I also want to sing while playing, what is the best way to keep time?
What about changing the count for effect? Like slowing up on an outro, to make it more dramatic. Do you count that sort of thing?
Thanks for encouraging counting “until you don’t have to” (I need the encouragement). Recently played two (fairly) simple songs with various groups. The songs are in 4/4 but have an occasional measure of 3 and they never came out quite correct, and might have if we all had counted better.
(The Weight by the Band and Uncle John’s Band by the Grateful Dead.)
YOU NEED TO LEARN THE RULES BEFORE YOU CAN PROPERLY BREAK THEM!!! Since you have been sending me these teasers I have been considering buying your course when $$$ allows me to do so.
Thanks, David Alan King.
Griff…Love the stuff you send me and enjoy your insight on how to teach. I have been playing for over 50 years (the first ? were rock bands because that is where the $$$ was) and while in rock bands early in my life, I always managed to slip a few blues numbers in. I have never needed to count (but learned how to anyway) and always played by feel, EXCEPT when I decided one of my bands was going to play “Take Five”! It is a Brubeck piece (as you probably already know) that is in 5/4 time. Now I am not that great at jazz so without counting it would have been impossible. Now, I play almost exclusively blues, R&B, and what I call “White Boy Honky Tonk” and equally never do gigs. Although I do get asked to “sit in” on sessions, and play the obligatory living room performances. I do love studio work though. I think that your message (about counting) is very important to most players and it falls into my firm belief that I always tell folks how ask me to teach them (I don’t teach) is that YOU NEED TO LEARN THE RULES BEFORE YOU CAN PROPERLY BREAK THEM!!! Since you have been sending me these teasers I have been cocidering
I really appreciate the quality time and attention to detail that griff puts in for us all,just keep rocking and listen to our main man,he knows what hes doing!
If you’re not in time when playing with others it is no different than being out of tune. It isn’t going to sound good to anyone. As boring as it may seem, get out the metronome. See if you can play with the beat, to where the click of the metronome disappears. Today you can get digital metronomes that you can set for everything from a blues shuffle to triplets. Invaluable.
Thanks Griff. Keep up the good work dude.
i agree with counting as you are learning. as a professional drummer of 40+ years. i don’t need to count, i feel the beat. that may be for some, but i learned drums by counting. it is very important. after a lot of practice and playing the beat will guide you to the proper destination. drums for me are easy i don’tcount i feel. i wanted to learn guitar and i still have to count playing guitar. someday i may reach the level i have attained on the drums. feel the music, but you have to count to get there. always know where the beat is! (This applies to any instrument you play) thank you.
Counting needs to come first. As you are learning, that it what gives it structure and and sense of knowing what you’re doing with any music. After you get that nailed, you can add the feeling, and it might even come naturally, if you relax and enjoy it. If you do not keep time with the music and band, you stick out like a thistle in a flower garden. Feeling still needs to be in time. But as you get more experienced, you FEEL the timing of the music. Feeling also includes syncopation, slurs, trills, hammer-ons…whatever fits the “feeling” of the song itself. Once you get the timing (counting) down, the feeling will follow from the heart. 🙂 Play on people.
I’m on board with the counting.
then you don’t have it right yet Once you get it, it comes so naturally and bored will not be in your vocabulary.
1 an a 2 an a 3 an 4 sounds borish . try pants and boots and pants and boots . i prefer to tap it out . playing over a track works also . i must be blessed i can usually jump in at any time in a song . i can pretty much figure out what is being played after hearing a piece of music. technic theroy and composition this part of bgu is the best . i am a better soloist than before. can you count and play and sing at the same time i believe if you got a drum beat and reliable one then you can feel it. bottom line just have fun . get serious when or if you got the band thing together. do not get too beat up trying to be perfect no musician plays the same song exactly every time. its called being human we all make mistakes . this is just an opinion and comment on counting . listen to walk the dog by aerosmith and then the real original recording . wow man totally diffrent yes. um brah
Hi Griff
Lesson well spoken, learning that counting is the beginning of singing and both are essential to playing music. this was kind of what I was trying to reply back to you the other day, the counting forced me to open my eyes and relax so I could focus on what was really being played and the timing and accents of certain notes, so that the solos have much more feeling to them. Keep the lessons coming and mean time I will keep trying till I get it right
thanks
John
Ah-men Brother Ben!!!!
The thing that I like the most about Griff’s lessons is that he breaks down every lick and solo and counts out loud in the video. I just got Gig in a Box and by counting along with Griff, I have learned the opening solo of the first song and can nail the timing every time now. I admit it was hard the first time but after watching the video over and over, I was able to count it out on my own. Now that I learned the first 12 bars, I am concentrating on feeling the music for that part of the song. Before Griff’s lessons I felt like a parrot trying to duplicate the sounds I heard and because of this I couldn’t hear the other instruments in a meaningful way. Counting kind of magnifies your awareness of the beat and aligns music that you hear to the clock in your head.
Yes Sir. You gots to count! 2,3,4……
Thank Mr Griff.
Thank you Sir Griff , I’ve been following your good lessons and advice for about a year now and when I practice at home I’m feeling like it’s starting to come together although I’ve got much to learn yet …One day I’ll be ready to move into your full lesson plan , right now there is still alot of ground work to cover !!! God bless you …
Thanks for the Blog on Counting or Feeling the Beat! Griff
It’s got to be the biggest hill to climb, when it comes to learning any instrument! If you can feel the Beat, your probably a well seasoned Guitar player. For us beginners, it’s a daily struggle! I’ve been playing about 5 years & I still wonder if I’m going to tackle this timing issue! First you have to figure what your going to play, then where the notes & cords are on the Fretboard! Once you get it down then you have to get the Song in time! We’ll now you have think about what to play & keep it in time. There’s cords, there’s notes, there half notes, 1/4 notes, 1/2 notes, there’s rests, there’s ties, you have to speed up & slow down depending what kind of note your playing! It’s really tough for a new player to grasp. Take the Pentatonic scales for instead, you can go up & down the scale, this is cool! Play that scale in time, with 1/2 notes or Triplets, now it’s a nightmare! Then you eventually will have to learn to Bend tough’s notes as well, & keep time,
For the beginner it’s going over & over the same thing, one measure of music at a time. Get it down & go to the next! Play & play it Hundreds of time, that’s what I have to do! Might take me 2 years to get through Beginning Blues Guitar who knows! Timing is everything! Play along with the CD, then you find out how lousy your timing is! Then it’s back to work tell you can get it right! If there’s a will there’s a way!
Thanks again Griff, for everything you do for us!
Jeffrey Goblirsch
In your first lessons, you stressed how important counting out loud is.
When I started counting out loud its really works.
Thank You
I have been playing for decades and counting is the first step. 4/4 and 3/4 timing is common but sometimes I encounter 6/8 and 5/4 (jazz) if you can’t count it you can’t play it
Hi griff. You are so right about the need to count.i thought I had a natural feel when I played country and rock n roll but when I joined a strict tempo band for dancing I soon realised I had to count particularly the most difficult parts . I remember the 10/8 and 9/8 were hard I certainly sweated a bit on those. I needed to count more when I was doing cabaret backing if we were lucky we got 15 mins to look at the dots before going on stage.
…once again I’m in total agreement with you Griff but you better finish the framing and put the roof on before you hang the drywall 🙂 Thanks again Griff, best regards, robert (still saving for the full course)
i’m one of those people who have there own inner metronome. i’ve been playing for 40 years. played profesionally. had my own band, was under contract with A&M Records in 1969. the only counting i’ve done is to start the song. i use my ear for the turn around and i might miss beat 1, but you wont notice it in my solo’s. that when some time i have to count when to change my timing. Griff i have been trying to count out loud for a year and it just messes me up. cordenation!! if i’m going to play Rithym guitar i practice the strumming until i can do it off the fly. then i practice singing the song while strumming. bad habbits stick when your 62. i have done all my own music on cd. just used the drum machine for my count. played every instrument with a roland GR30 and the gk pickup om my blues hawk. it’s sitting in my life long friends music collection. he’s a publisher and Simon And Garfunkels road manager. if i knew you email i would send you a song from it. thanks for the blog and all that you do for us students. tk.
I agree, Griff, yet. . . What I like about old funky delta blues is their sloppiness with chord changes and timing. It wanders off sometimes. It’s raw and dirty, not polished. They drop a beat. So what? They go on.
Playing with a beat generator gets monotonous. Our brains like regularity, but then, some variation and surprise. I like it when the singer or soloist lags off the beat, then catches up. Maybe this is the rhythmic version of a well-placed alt chord.
What about the term “legato?” Doesn’t that mean variable in timing and other expression? Slower – faster – according to the part of the song or the whim of the performer?
That said, groups or a band playing need to not stay stuck on a clash of rhythms. If someone misses a change, that person or the rest of them have to adjust to match up. And syncopation works best as accent or emphasis within a regular beat.
Bryan unless your miss. John hert…..thayt theory won’t fly. Been teachin’ banjo for 50 years or so and here this a lot. Mack
Actually Byron, legato means: notes are played or sung smoothly and connected. That is, the player transitions from note to note with no intervening silence. This is often indicated by a “tie” between notes. It really has nothing to do specifically with timing except that the notes are counted the same as any other note without a tie.
In my last sentence of my previous reply, Byron, I should have said that a tie extends the value of the tied notes. For instance, two eighth notes “tied” together are counted as a quarter note. You might also look into the meaning of a “slur” just for grins.
I’m 63 years old and a self taught guitar player for most of my life (so far that is). I think Griff would agree that there is always something new to learn no matter how old you are or how long you’ve been at it. That’s what makes it so much fun and so fascinating.
Hi Griff, One the problems of being a self taught guitar player from the 60s is having too much time to reinforce a lot of bad habits that take serious work and practice to overcome learned handicaps. This sort of simple basics of counting may be tedious at times but is the only way to retrain years of bad habits. Thank you, Eric
I have been playing for years , and I am one of those 99 out of a 100 that needs to break a lick down every once in a while to mimick what it is you are learning .
Pretty much after you get the timing down , you can make it your own groove.
Thanks again Griff.
I have only been playing guitar for a couple of months and do have private tuition.Being 72 years of age I have found the most important thing about learning is to “learn to walk” before you “run.
Your lessons are a great help for me in doing this. Thanks Griff.
Hello, I called yesterday to order the killer blues 3-rule special for 17.00 and was told that it could only be purchased online. I don’t like to use cc online rather I prefer to give cc # by phone for security reasons. I would still like to buy the deal; can I do the order by phone?
Thanks Dan Jones Rancho Mirage guy :^)
I remember back in the early sixties, the excitement of meeting one of the jazz ‘greats’ – Dizzie Gillespie. He said something that always stuck in my mind. When someone once asked him in New York ‘Man, how do I get to Carnegie Hall’? Answer – ‘Practice man -practice’. Funny but so very true. Whether it’s counting or practicing riffs – whatever NOT ‘Practice makes perfect’ BUT ‘Perfect practice makes perfect’. Me? I’m still learning (80 yrs old).
Although still a beginner, I am old enough to remember the first time I heard Bob Dylan play and sing. His voice was a bit odd and his playing was rough but he had one quality that made him stand out – in his early years – and that was TIMING. His phrasing made you ignore the actual tonal quality and his sense of timing was what made his music special.
Perhaps Bob Zimmerman(Dylan) was one of those rare people with natural timing or he just counted a lot when he was learning; it was his sense of rhythm and vocal phrasing that caught your attention and made the songs stick in your head.
ALL of the great players have a natural feel for time….that’s one of the reasons why they are great! (^_~)
I practice counting while playing and striking my notes on the “&” before beat and letting them ring through over the beat, wow anticipation happens and really locks in the notes to the blues groove and I get the blues! You can only drop in those notes if you know the count. So as far as I am concerned counting is paying your dues to play the blues.
Good advice for sure. I agree that if you’re just starting out, enroll in counting101 and earn your Masters in it. I wish I woulda. But I learned(or tried to learn) from 45s and 33s as best I could. To undo and re-learn now, well, I’d lose more ground than I care to at my age. When this subject popped up a year or so ago on the forum and tensions rose, I remembered reading Mickey Mantle’s autobiography years ago and he talked about sitting in the dugout with Ted Williams at the All Star game. Williams was holding court on the subject of hitting and young Mick took it all to heart and in the subsequent process of implementing the Splendid Splinter’s advice, Mantle went into the worst slump of his career. I try to count out the phrases that have syncopated notes or a flurry of triplets but other than that, I’ll just keep feeling the music. If it’s a tune that grabs me, I’m pretty sure I’ll get it. Thanks for the blog Griff, whole lotta good stuff there.
timing training is good but feel is that gut instinct you cannot teach.
If you don’t have a good sense of time, then you’ll never ever have a good sense of feel. You have to ‘feel’ the pulse of the rhythm in order to make that ‘feel’ sound good. And having good timing is the only way that will happen
Have you ever tried rubbing your stomach whilst patting your head. Very difficult for most people. Counting while playing for me is like that multiplied by 10. Counting totally wrecks what I’m playing. Wouldn’t playing to a backing track achieve the same result?
yep….but then you’ll only be able to play that tune you just learned. As soon as another tune pops up, you’ll be stumped again and the mystery will continue for you. Re read Griff’s article.
I can’t see any difference between playing in time to internal counting (if you can do that and play at the same time) and playing in time to a drum beat or a metronome. And whether I have learned any specific song or not seems irrelevant.
I think that the issue of a piece of music, whether you are working out the whole song or the lead parts of it, becoming stale is a real problem, and it is hard to keep it fresh when you are continually going over the same parts to get it right. There is no doubt that the rythem, beat, and count of a song is critical and the only way I ever found that continually keeps it fresh is by using a metronome. You find out what time the song is done in, and you try it in that time, which for most of us we probably can’t do it in that time, which means you have to slow the metronome down to the time you can do it smoothly, and then you start extending it from there. Hopefully we are skilled enough that we are not hanging around at the slow speeds too long. The only other thing that I found that works is to get away from the song for a week or two so that when you come back to it, it will sound fresh again but because of the earlier work you did with it some of what you have to learn you will have already learned. Funny thing about getting away from a song, is that when you come back to a song you hear things you didn’t hear the first time around, and most of the time it is the little nuances of things that were done with the song that makes it seem layered. I am of the firm belief that the love of a song has to be protected and if you can’t get it down fast enough so that working on it doesn’t feel like drudgery, then you are working on something too advanced for your playing level, and the same thing goes for a lead that you might be wanting to learn…..
Very well stated! I do the same thing….. and a tip here on that is to work on 2 or 3 tunes at a time…..this way the ‘love of the tune’ won’t become tarnished.
While the blues are definatly something to be felt. you need to keep in mind what the blues actually are. It’s not just wailing about your miseable life. It’s HOW you wail about it. The rythem is the very basis of it. It’s the ability to express your feelings withen that structure with expression and phraising that really make it the blues. I don’t believe you would enjoy any of the great blues singers if they were just bitching about their troubles with no structure. Because you feel the blues but don’t have the ability (yet) to express it in a blues fasheon doesn’t make it ok. It takes time and effort and passion to get better, but it’s well worth doing. Why play badly just because you can?
Griff, I just want to take a second to say “THANK YOU” Your lessons & teaching style really work 4 me.
I’ve been all over YouTube & can say I picked up a thing here & there, but by comparison your lessons & teaching methods are much more lucrative to my learning. I’m very appreciative of the time you give to us, YOUR TIME.
I know there are many,many of US who are very greatful to you for the quality time you bestow upon us w/ your teachings…..Thanxxx again man.
(Gonna go git some practice in right now) Git er’ done, Love ya man !!
That’s awesome and I do try to count. It is tedious but I like the way you explained it so know it will make it a little less tedious for me and I have a path I know will get me to were I want to go
Thank you
John B
Counting? Try and count Drive My Car by The Beatles. This one has nothing to do with counting. It’s totally feel and only they could have done it.
Jay……..Rock Nurse
Not to be contridictory but Drive My Car is in fact “countable.” It is in standard 4/4 time. You can look at the written score sheet if you’re in doubt. Of course if you can play it without counting – go for it. I’m sure McCartney didn’t care about a score sheet when he wrote it. Just a bit of trivia — Paul played lead guitar for this song.
OK, it IS a big deal. If you can’t play within the timing structure of a song, you ain’t making music. Just noise. NOTHING is more important. That has been smacked into my head again and again. When you finally get it, it makes playing SO much easier.
I am amazed at how often your video and blogs are so timely( pun attempted). This is the very question that has been bothering me for the last month with no clear answer. Thanks for blog and the info. Still working through your courses.
Dear Griff–I have been out-of-pocket for the past two weeks and just today catching up on my e-mails. I would like to order Killer Blues Solos Made Easy at the sales price. Will you sell it to me at the sales price? Thank you. Chris