DAW Low track volume (Example from Studio One)

[CaptainMoto]

Edit: Moderated thread Added by @PapaRaptor
This thread is a fork from a thread in the Virtual Jam Room.
Reference:

Mellow Jam E major

Here is a nice slow, non bluesy jam in E major. I took the first 1:58. Mellow jam E major - TZ

bluesguitarunleashed.com

Sounds good @JPsuff

but...........
The track lost a lot of volume.

 

[JPsuff]

Sounds good @JPsuff

but...........
The track lost a lot of volume.

I didn't notice any volume loss.
I checked it twice; once after I saved it and again in Dropbox before I copied the link.
I played it through and just listened without looking at waveforms to hear if there was any difference between my volume and everyone else's and it sounded fine.
In fact, the waveform in Dropbox from my track is significantly bigger than the rest of the track which is why I double checked it - I didn't want mine to overpower anything.
I just played it back again and it sounds fine - and that's just through my.phone speaker.
Some tracks are a bit louder or softer than.others but to my ear not so much that it jumps out at you
If there's any loss in volume it must have occurred before my track and I just inherited it.

I don't know what to tell you.

 

[CaptainMoto]

I didn't notice any volume loss.
I checked it twice; once after I saved it and again in Dropbox before I copied the link.
I played it through and just listened without looking at waveforms to hear if there was any difference between my volume and everyone else's and it sounded fine.
In fact, the waveform in Dropbox from my track is significantly bigger than the rest of the track which is why I double checked it - I didn't want mine to overpower anything.
I just played it back again and it sounds fine - and that's just through my.phone speaker.
Some tracks are a bit louder or softer than.others but to my ear not so much that it jumps out at you
If there's any loss in volume it must have occurred before my track.

I don't know what to tell you.

Hmm, very curious!
Sounds like you're doing all the right stuff.
Wonder if it's on my end?

Let's see what happens with the next player.

 

[CaptainMoto]

I dragged the previous track and yours into Studio One.
Here's what they look like::

Maybe a smart person like @PapaRaptor can figure this out?

 

[JPsuff]

Captain,
Just listened to the entire recording and I'm afraid the culprit may be your track.
There are 5 tracks altogether and the leads in the first 3 are nearly identical in overall volume. On the 4th track, the lead volume drops significantly and then on my track, the lead is actually the loudest of all 5.
The bed track sounds pretty steady throughout and to me, the only noticeable difference in anything is your lead.

Strange.

 

[CaptainMoto]

Strange.

Very
I'll have to sleep on this

 

[PapaRaptor]

I downloaded all 4 recordings and dragged and dropped them into Studio One without any other processing. They are in order.


If I had to make a guess, I would suggest that perhaps JP has the MAIN OUT on Studio One set well below 0db when the track is rendered.

 

[TexBill]

@JPsuff I downloaded the track from TZ Mellow E maj - TZ-CO-CM.mp3
@CaptainMoto I then downloaded track after JP added his part. Mellow E maj - TZ-CO-CM-JP.mp3

Between the original TZ and CM there is no significant change in volume nor the audio presented in S1.
On track that has JP there is a significant drop in volume as is there a huge difference in the audio envelope presented in S1.

I concur with @CaptainMoto that there is a drastic change from (Mellow E maj - TZ-CO-CM) posted by CM and I'm in from 4:27 to 5:55 as posted by @JPsuff (Mellow E maj - TZ-CO-CM-JP)

I also dropped both of the files in S1 and had to enlarge the graphic presentation a very large amount to see there was any audio recorded (just a horizontal line before changing) in the track from JP. My screen supports what CM shows in his screen capture.

@JPsuff can you describe the method you are using to record, i.e., 1) download the original track as posted by the first member 2) drag file to DAW 3) add a new track for recording 4) record you playing and et cetera 5) locate end of previous recordings and add your part.

Does that describe how you go about recording and editing the previous submission to VJR. If you follow the above process then there must be some changes in volume levels when the mix-down is performed and final exportation as an mp3 and prior to uploading to drop box or whatever service you use.

Based on what I see when doing the comparison in S1, there must be some outside influence that is causing the shift in over all volume from the original to the track you posted after you played/recorded and edited the track to add your part.

Do you have the capability in your DAW to see what Moto and I both are seeing as related to the change?

The part you played and submitted sounds good, however, there is a large drop in audio level on the entire track you submitted when compared to the previous submissions.

Maybe @PapaRaptor and @CaptainMoto can enlighten all of us who struggle from time to time getting tracks to remain at the same volume as presented by the original member... I know I could use some guidance in that department...

 

[TexBill]

@PapaRaptor thanks for showing all tracks. I did a comparison of the track submitted by Moto and the one by JP. I could not see any sign of audio on JPs track until I moved the slider to a point where it became visible.

The MAIN OUT db setting is a very strong contender in the chasing game. I have had similar outcomes in the past and found that to be the case.

Would the audio level change during MIX-DOWN or if recorded at a decent level with MAIN OUT db at or near zero there should be a good level in the final mix?

 

[JPsuff]

I don't know what to tell you.
If you want to send a polygraph examiner here, I'll tell him my track sounds fine and it's the track before mine that's low in volume, and I'd pass with flying colors.
The bed track on Captain's track seems OK volume-wise but his guitar volume is significantly lower than the first two tracks and my guitar is actually the loudest of all the tracks.

Whether I listen to it on my PC or on my cell, it sounds fine. And as I wrote earlier, I checked the sound twice and in comparison to other leads and again, it sounded fine and did not require any manipulation of volume controls.
I know my global volume on my PC very well to the point where if I wanted to hear some music at a comfortable volume, I could mute the system, then set the volume slider and when I turn the sound back on, it's right where I want it. Consequently, knowing my general.playback volume, if I record something and play it back, if I don't have to significantly (or even marginally) readjust the volume, then I know it will play OK for anyone and that the recording is good. And I'm playing back through a pair of Eris 8" powered monitors with an 8" powered sub, so it's not like a tinny set of "computer speakers".

And it sounds fine.
And now my brain hurts.
Goodnight!

 

[CaptainMoto]

I don’t think water boarding is going to solve this mystery?

 

[PapaRaptor]

I don’t think water boarding is going to solve this mystery?

Maybe bamboo under the finger nails???

 

[CaptainMoto]

Seriously,
Whatever is going on with this, I'd really like to figure it out.
I'm certain we can all learn something that will help us, if we can get to the bottom of this.

 

[PapaRaptor]

Seriously,
Whatever is going on with this, I'd really like to figure it out.
I'm certain we can all learn somethjing that will help us, if we can get to the bottom of this.

I have no reason to doubt that JP thinks he is doing everything right. I'm sure he's not intentionally doing it. The proof is in the downloads, though.
We know that JP is using Studio One, which cuts out a lot of "what if" about the process. (Or I think he has previously mentioned he is using Studio One).
JP's rendered audio output is 24db lower than Captain Moto's recording.
Captain Moto's track peaks at -4.12db/left and -4.33db/right.
JP's track peaks at -26.3db/left and -24.5db/right.
That says the issue is one of two places.
1. JP's interface for guitar input is exceptionally low, which requires that the backing track be turned down on the backing track channel fader so they can be level matched for the output.
-OR-
2. In order to keep volume levels down during recording, the MAIN fader is being turned down so as to not blast through JP's whole house. As a result, when the track is rendered, the level is attenuated according to the MAIN fader.

Signals for both Captain Moto's backing track and JPs guitar solo should be hitting the level meters with peaks of between -12 and -6db. When the recording is finished,

So here are my questions for JP.
What is the level (fader) setting for the backing track on your setup in Studio One?
What is the level setting for your guitar input in Studio One?
What is the level setting on your Main output fader?

One of those three answers should answer the the main question of why JP's track is so much lower than Captain Moto's (and the two preceding tracks as well).

 

[CaptainMoto]

@PapaRaptor @JPsuff
Hows about moving this techical discussion down to the Recording Tips & Tricks area so we can leave this VJR track continue without disruption and allow the tech dialog to continue in a dedicated thread.

 

[TexBill]

@PapaRaptor
Sent PM relating to this issue. I agree with Moto.

 

[PapaRaptor]

Now... how to quickly fix it in Studio One.
<Link Removed>
Never mind. Audio didn't record!

 

[JPsuff]

OK, I'm gonna go with #2 in Lloyd's post.
I tend to like to record at night and even though my wife says not to worry about volume, I still try to keep it low. This wasn't so much of an issue when I used to use Audacity and the playback WAS through a set of computer speakers which could sound pretty good (Boston Acoustics surround with a sub) but we're nowhere near as loud as the Eris monitors combined with the amplification of Studio One, which if unchecked could produce hearing damage.

That said, I do have a tendency to keep the volume low. But after having gone through a similar problem in the past, I do tend to watch where my levels are, but perhaps not as diligently as I should.

I have no idea just where everything was set, but I'd bet that my Master Volume was lower than normal and consequently all other volumes were probably too low overall.
But that still doesn't explain why, when played back through multiple sources, the track sounded the way it did for me as stated earlier.

I think Audacity created some bad habits because it had an easy to use clipping control so if upon playback my guitar was too loud (or too low) it could easily be adjusted prior to export. As such, I tended to do a lot of recording "by ear" and not pay so much attention to levels.

At any rate, I am going to re-familiarize myself with the quite extensive tutorials that Lloyd has so painstakingly provided (and which thick-headed Polacks ignore) and maybe - just maybe - actually write some things down and refer to that info each time I record until it replaces old habits.

Thanks to all for your input!
(and you thought this was just gonna be a simple exercise in E...)

 

[PapaRaptor]

Would the audio level change during MIX-DOWN or if recorded at a decent level with MAIN OUT db at or near zero there should be a good level in the final mix?

Sorry I didn't notice this earlier.
If the fader on the source track is at 0db and the fader on the Main is set at 0db and there is no other processing (no inserts in the either the source or Main channel strips), the rendered output signal should be identical in level to the input signal.
In this case, since the input came from dropbox as an MP3, the tracks maximum boundaries cannot exceed the full 16 bit sampling rate of a CD quality recording (at 44.1kHz/16 bit sampling). In actuality, it will probably be lower due to MP3's compression/decompression algorithm.

tl;dr. If your levels are good going in the source recording and you don't futz around with the faders, they will be equally good on the output. Keep in mind that this is only referring to a single signal or maybe two, like VJR recordings. If you're assembling an entire band within Studio One or any other DAW, it's a completely different game.

 

[TexBill]

Sorry I didn't notice this earlier.
If the fader on the source track is at 0db and the fader on the Main is set at 0db and there is no other processing (no inserts in the either the source or Main channel strips), the rendered output signal should be identical in level to the input signal.
In this case, since the input came from dropbox as an MP3, the tracks maximum boundaries cannot exceed the full 16 bit sampling rate of a CD quality recording (at 44.1kHz/16 bit sampling). In actuality, it will probably be lower due to MP3's compression/decompression algorithm.

tl;dr. If your levels are good going in the source recording and you don't futz around with the faders, they will be equally good on the output. Keep in mind that this is only referring to a single signal or maybe two, like VJR recordings. If you're assembling an entire band within Studio One or any other DAW, it's a completely different game.

No worries on over looking this. I took a break for lunch and have just now seen this.

As to the input and output levels, that makes perfect sense. And then after I returned to my computer after lunch, I found a very short video by Joe Gilder that shows where the Level Meter is located in Effects....DUH! Guessing I just blew past that on previous searches for an Effect Plugin...

So after attempting to duplicate your method of putting Pinky on the small square box... I could not get the box to appear. However, after highlighting the track, I was successful in Dragging the audio level upward to a suitable level. And with the AID of the Level Meter observe actual db changes as it was being dragged...

Another super tip from the Professor Of S1. Thanks Papa...