WHY does am Emin pentatonic work over a Cmaj7

ingog

Started in 2009
I was on the internet and a guitar “tickler” came up to get me interested in a fellow selling a course. In it he suggested an idea that sounded great but i can figure out how it works so well. I can’t find the site anymore. Let me see if I can explain without pictures. He held a C maj7 on the 8th fret (i.e 1st finger 8th fret 6th string:, x 5th: 2nd finger, 8 fret fret, 2nd string: 3rd finger 9th fret, 4th string: pinky, 8th fret, 3rd string: x 1st string). It’s a common 4 string chord configuration. Then he said to play the E minor pentatonic over it. For ease of fingering I used 4 position, as he suggested. It sounded perfect. He also suggested to playing any three notes from that pentatonic as a mini chord while soloing, in addition to arpeggios of the chord. WHY does ‘Em pentatonic work over a Cmaj 7.
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Here's how I think I would look at it?

All the notes in E minor pentatonic ( E G A B D) are also in the key of C Major, in which Cmaj7 (C E G B) is the tonic chord.

I like to think about how each note you play “affects” the chord you’re playing it over.

Playing an E, G or B from the scale would double a note in the chord.

Playing a D would create a Cmaj9 sound (CEGBD) while the A would create a Cmaj13 sound (CEGBA).

Any 3 note mini chord from the scale will still be 3 notes from the C Major scale.

(Maybe try Am and Dm pentatonics over Cmaj7 and see what happens.)

As a side note, the iii chord, Em7 (E G B D) has 4 of the 5 notes in E minor pentatatonic. :unsure:
 
Last edited:

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
It would also work over a Cmaj7 IV chord in G Major since there's no F natural that would conflict with the F# of the iii, V and viib5 chords?
 
Last edited:

david moon

Attempting the Blues
C maj7 C E G B E

E G B E from the Em pent scale will fit. The A from the pent will fit- its a 6 in the Cmaj scale. Probably want to avoid the D in the E pent as it is too close to the C root. Is that what the teacher was doing?

A D in the upper register might do as a passing note.
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
I didn't think of this earlier ....

Notice that Cmaj7 could also be considered an Em chord with C in the bass: Em/C. (CxBEGx)

If you moved you first finger down a fret you could barre a “complete” Em chord, 2nd inversion, i.e. B in the bass: Em/B.(BEBEGB)

Every note in the fingering of this chord is also played in your fingering of the E minor pentatonic scale played in Box 4. :cool:
 

Attachments

  • emc guitar chord - Google Search.png
    emc guitar chord - Google Search.png
    23.4 KB · Views: 1
Last edited:

Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
There's a broader picture to this that's fun....

1st - any chord associates with its pentatonic scale - so if you play an E minor chord, you can play an E minor scale, regardless of what key you're in. If you are soloing over an F chord, you can use F major pentatonic scale over that F chord, regardless of the key. (there's a bit as to why this works, for now just trust me.)

2nd - As you build out a Cmaj7 chord and start adding the 9th, 11th, and 13th, you've created all of the notes in the C major scale (CEGB is Cmaj7, then D,F,A from the 9,11,13)

3rd - that means all of the chords in the key of C major are "embedded" within that C13 chord and the Standard Harmony Rule comes into play.

You can use any of the following scales over a Cmaj13:
C major pentatonic
D minor pentatonic
E minor pentatonic
F major pentatonic
G major pentatonic
A minor pentatonic
and we don't talk about the B diminished :)

With Cmaj7, you have a C major triad, and an Eminor triad, so C major pentatonic (and its relative, A minor) as well as Eminor (and its relative G major) are valid pentatonics.

If the Cmaj7 is a I chord (you're in the key of C) then you can use all of the Cmaj13 options because you're in the key.

Sorry, that might be a little much, but I love this kind of stuff :)
 

david moon

Attempting the Blues
Griff- that was a little much, but was I far off in my response?

So is a Cmaj13 adding the 2, 4, 6 (or 9 11 and 13)?

Whereas with a C9 or C11 etc. it is assumed there is a flat 7 in the chord.
 

Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
Griff- that was a little much, but was I far off in my response?

So is a Cmaj13 adding the 2, 4, 6 (or 9 11 and 13)?

Whereas with a C9 or C11 etc. it is assumed there is a flat 7 in the chord.
You probably said the same as me just in shorter form. For whatever reason I felt compelled to expound :)

And yes, you're right on the C9/C11 vs Cmaj13 thing (b7 is assumed.)
 

leftymike01

Blues Newbie
Music Theory is very intriguing ,I need to get back on track with Griff's course Guitar theory made useful
Also need to find a download Theory App to practice with my phone seems glue to me away lol
 

ingog

Started in 2009
I posted the question. After reading all the responses, I realize I have very little understand of the whole concept. AND, I'm not going to put the time and energy to learn it. Glad so many of you enjoyed it.
 

TexBill

Blues in Texas
Thanks for posting such an interesting riddle @ingog. You did get quite the response including da man himself.

As to all that theory, some of it makes sense. And back in the stone ages when I played cornet in jr. hi, we did not learn music theory like this. We only learned how to read sheet music (standard notation). I am not a speed reader by any stretch of the imagination. Given time I can decipher notes on the treble clef staff. I have to have visual assitance with the bass clef staff.

Over the almost 7 decades I have dabbled with one musical instrument or another, I never was exposed to as much theory as Griff's GTMU course covers. It has been interesting and I have learned more than I was aware existed before exploring GTMU. No, I have not completed that one. And that Eminor question got me thinking...
 

ingog

Started in 2009
There's a broader picture to this that's fun....

1st - any chord associates with its pentatonic scale - so if you play an E minor chord, you can play an E minor scale, regardless of what key you're in. If you are soloing over an F chord, you can use F major pentatonic scale over that F chord, regardless of the key. (there's a bit as to why this works, for now just trust me.)

2nd - As you build out a Cmaj7 chord and start adding the 9th, 11th, and 13th, you've created all of the notes in the C major scale (CEGB is Cmaj7, then D,F,A from the 9,11,13)

3rd - that means all of the chords in the key of C major are "embedded" within that C13 chord and the Standard Harmony Rule comes into play.

You can use any of the following scales over a Cmaj13:
C major pentatonic
D minor pentatonic
E minor pentatonic
F major pentatonic
G major pentatonic
A minor pentatonic
and we don't talk about the B diminished :)

With Cmaj7, you have a C major triad, and an Eminor triad, so C major pentatonic (and its relative, A minor) as well as Eminor (and its relative G major) are valid pentatonics.

If the Cmaj7 is a I chord (you're in the key of C) then you can use all of the Cmaj13 options because you're in the key.

Sorry, that might be a little much, but I love this kind of stuff :)
I guess there is a difference between what you CAN. Play and what you SHOULD play. I put the Cmaj7 on a loop and played all your suggestions. Some sounded good, others just awful.
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
You probably found that C, Am, G and Em pentatonics sounded okay over the CMaj7.

F and Dm not so much.

They don’t have the 3 or 7 of the chord.

But do have the 9, 11 and 13.

Maybe try going diatonic with F Lydian and D Dorian.

Which are modes of the C Major scale.
 
Last edited:

Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
I guess there is a difference between what you CAN. Play and what you SHOULD play. I put the Cmaj7 on a loop and played all your suggestions. Some sounded good, others just awful.
Absolutely. And, in my experience, even if you can, AND you like the sound, you should use it as seasoning, not the main dish.
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Yes, I realize it's been a while but for anyone interested I just noticed that in the 7-5-18 AAP Theory Session on "Triad Comping" Griff discusses this.
 
Last edited:

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Also Theory 2-13-19 "Alternate Pentatonic Scales".

It pays to review past sessions. :cool:

I'm not the only one who suggests you do so. :unsure:
 
Top