Todays video from BGU

luckylarry

Student Of The Blues
Just a thought I had on this. The "key" by itself tells the sharps or flats if you know them. The sharps or flats tell the key their number of flats or sharps. The reason they are both in the music I think is because the song writer needs to tell you when to flatten a sharp or flat. So you can know or memorize the keys and sharps or flats. but not when to flatten them. The other thing I thought of is that the key tells you it is not the relative minor or major. It tells the key.
Don't know if this helps the discussion but these thoughts jumped at me.
 

david moon

Attempting the Blues
For guitar and bass, I tend to think of movable patterns. If it's key of Ab, I find the root and any notes in the Ab major scale will be relative to that root and be in a pattern or "box"..

And conversely there are quite a few chords where you can use open strings (i.e. not movable) G C D E A F
 

Elio

Student Of The Blues
The "key" is experience and/or memorization.

Are we talking about reading standard notation or just jamming when someone says a song is in a particular key?

If someone tells me the song is going to be in A Major I know what notes are sharp and the chords in the key.

I don't have to spend any time figuring them out. (I also know my birthday, social, phone number, etc without thinking about it.)

A beginner would need some kind of process to figure it out. The key signature would help.

If I see 3 sharps in a key signature I don't actually have to consciously count them or figure out what they are. As David says, I just recognize that's the key signature for A Major (or possibly F# minor).

If someone calls out a "Blues in A", that's a different animal, but I still know what's up.

Telling me the key or showing me the key signature are two ways of telling me the same thing.

Either way I can tell you the notes and chords in the key.

If we're talking specifically about playing the guitar, yes, it would be easier to just know the key is A and play a pattern and not have to even realize that any of the notes are actually sharped.

If I'm playing the piano, I pretty much have to know when to play one of them black keys.


(Somehow I just feel like I'm just rambling on about this stuff. It's probably because I deleted 2 previous attempts at posting a response that @Elio got some kind of error message if he was trying to respond to something what was no longer there????. I need some sleep. Good night, all.)

I didn't think you would block me but I have been known to be bluntly inarticulate so I was hoping my attitude wasn't misunderstood. Since I no longer see the messages I was responding to, I think I tried to respond to both of your deleted messages just after you deleted them, hence the error messages. Let's chalk it up to bad timing, and I'm sorry for misunderstanding.

With regard to the whole key signature question, both your explanation and the one offered by @Jalepeno make sense to me.
 

luckylarry

Student Of The Blues
I understand what you are saying david. I was just making the point that sometimes the written music is just the author trying to descibe what he/she is thinking about when writing music. The keys and accidentals are the mode of (not always perfect) communication. Once that is established then all the other subjects are open as you point out. If it is this key where do I want to start and fingering etc.
 

david moon

Attempting the Blues
I understand what you are saying david. I was just making the point that sometimes the written music is just the author trying to descibe what he/she is thinking about when writing music. The keys and accidentals are the mode of (not always perfect) communication. Once that is established then all the other subjects are open as you point out. If it is this key where do I want to start and fingering etc.
i hope you don't think I was contradicting or attacking you- just offering my perspective. Reviewing your last post maybe I am being too defensive.
 

tommytubetone

Great Lakes
Please take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt...
While I'm "familiar" with the circle of 5ths, I don't really know it and I certainly don't use it. Probably because Griff doesn't or didn't teach it for the first few years I was learning from him. I think the only reason he created a lesson about it is because so many people kept asking about it.
If it is something you have learned, it is already ingrained, then great, by all means use it, but I haven't found it necessary...
Maybe that's why I'm not further along than I am?
I’m with you Mike. I have it on the wall in my music room, but rarely need to look at it. It’s all there on the fretboard as Crossroads pointed out.
 

luckylarry

Student Of The Blues
david I did not take your comments as an attack on me. it is all good. I just threw out a couple of thoughts I had about keys, circle of 5'ths and so on. I respect that you have a deeper knowledge of theory than I do so I respect your view on theory (we can argue over who has the better guitar later. lol).
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Since I no longer see the messages I was responding to, I think I tried to respond to both of your deleted messages just after you deleted them, hence the error messages.
@Elio At first I wondered how you could be responding if my response was already gone.

Then I figured I must have deleted while you were actually typing.

But what are the chances of that happening twice?


Anyway, why did I delete.

I find these types of discussions frustrating. I was responding to "knowing the key is "easier".

The OP asks if the circle is an "acceptable tool for reference".

My question is "for who (whom?)?"

Things are easier and useful for people they are easier and useful for.

"Experienced" musicians know Keys and relationships.

Novice musicians need to go through some kind of initial process or have reference tools or learn "tricks" or short-cuts before things become second nature and they don't need to go through some kind of initial process or have reference tools or learn "tricks" or short-cuts anymore.


If I say I have a song and say it's in the key of Bb minor (Paleo's Song in Bb minor), some musicians will know which notes will have #'s in the melody and chords and some will have to stop and figure out what the scale is and where the sharps will be.

Some will know a pattern on the guitar and know all the notes will be in that pattern even if they don't know what they actually are.

If I notate the song in standard notation without a key signature, I will have to write in all the #'s myself.

If I notate it with all natural notes without a key signature, some readers will have to go through and put all the sharps in.

If I say it's in Bb minor and provide a key signature everyone should know where to add the #'s.

Even then, some may to go through the song and write in the #'s themselves.

Just as some need to go through a song and write in the count.

To me, all these discussions just come down to how experienced someone is.


Again, I feel like I'm just rambling and going around in circles (5ths or otherwise), so I think I take a break for awhile.

My only hope, as always, is that I'm being helpful in some way.

Otherwise I would just keep my mouth shut.

(Which would make some members happy.)
 

Elio

Student Of The Blues
@Elio At first I wondered how you could be responding if my response was already gone.

Then I figured I must have deleted while you were actually typing.

But what are the chances of that happening twice?


Anyway, why did I delete.

I find these types of discussions frustrating. I was responding to "knowing the key is "easier".

The OP asks if the circle is an "acceptable tool for reference".

My question is "for who (whom?)?"

Things are easier and useful for people they are easier and useful for.

"Experienced" musicians know Keys and relationships.

Novice musicians need to go through some kind of initial process or have reference tools or learn "tricks" or short-cuts before things become second nature and they don't need to go through some kind of initial process or have reference tools or learn "tricks" or short-cuts anymore.


If I say I have a song and say it's in the key of Bb minor (Paleo's Song in Bb minor), some musicians will know which notes will have #'s in the melody and chords and some will have to stop and figure out what the scale is and where the sharps will be.

Some will know a pattern on the guitar and know all the notes will be in that pattern even if they don't know what they actually are.

If I notate the song in standard notation without a key signature, I will have to write in all the #'s myself.

If I notate it with all natural notes without a key signature, some readers will have to go through and put all the sharps in.

If I say it's in Bb minor and provide a key signature everyone should know where to add the #'s.

Even then, some may to go through the song and write in the #'s themselves.

Just as some need to go through a song and write in the count.

To me, all these discussions just come down to how experienced someone is.


Again, I feel like I'm just rambling and going around in circles (5ths or otherwise), so I think I take a break for awhile.

My only hope, as always, is that I'm being helpful in some way.

Otherwise I would just keep my mouth shut.

(Which would make some members happy.)

I think we both had extraordinarily bad timing on that exchange. I figured the first message was a glitch but I got the same thing on my second response to you. Since responses to other members and threads went through fine it looked as though I was somehow blocked from responding to you. I was a little confused because I didn't think either of us said anything that was controversial or antagonistic. Sorry for jumping the gun on my assumption.

Looking at the big picture of key signatures, I do have a much better understanding of them now as a result of this discussion. I have been looking at them through the eyes of a guitar and harp player who tends to rely on tab more often than standard notation for both instruments. When I do use notation, it is to primarily determine the note values for the timing.

My comment about it being easier to simply name the key was based on a discussion I once had with my instructor. I had seen him play a gig and was asking about some hand signals he was passing with other band members. He had three fingers pointing up, which meant 3 sharps, or the key of A. I didn't ask him about it at the time but my thought was that if you tell me 3 sharps, I have to think through each of the possibilities to figure out the key, after which I don't really necessarily think about the sharps or flats since I then think in terms of the intervals and/or conforming to a particular scale.

In retrospect, a better way to say it would have been that *for me* it's easier to start with the key. I would acknowledge that is largely due to my having not taken the time to really drill the circle of fifths into my few remaining brain cells so that I can recall it quickly.
 
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