Todays video from BGU

[EllenHarvey]

This morning I witched Mr.Hamlin's latest offering- "Finding the I, IV & V etc". While trying to digest it I automatically picked up my circle of fifths to compare as a visual. Ummm, while learning the blues and its broken theory is this an acceptable "tool" for reference as you try and get it under your belt? Or on the other side, should I forget that I have it? I get that most of you here are light years ahead of me, but I am trying to get up to some sort of speed in all of this and don't want to take a wrong turn. I wish Griff might see this and insert some wisdom

 

[PapaRaptor]

Ummm, while learning the blues and its broken theory is this an acceptable "tool" for reference as you try and get it under your belt?

It is absolutely useful. It simply shortcuts what Griff explained in the video. While you should still learn the construct of the major scale, the circle is a very handy cheat sheet.

 

[Paleo]

Just an FYI (if you're interested).

As Griff said, he gave out a lot of info, but it's all related and ties together.

Whether talking about scale degrees, chords, keys, the order of sharps and flats, it' all on the Circle.

If you don't happen to have your guitar in your hands, you can get all 6 chords of a key simply by knowing where to look on the circle. (p. 18 in Griff's course).

For example, in C Major.

F and G are on either side of C. They are the IV and V, respectively.

Just inside the circle, you see Am with Dm and Em on either side. These are the vi, ii and iii, respectively.

You have all 6 chords of C Major in a nice little "wedge" of the circle with C riding high in the middle.

Just rearrange them as C Dm Em F G Am.

You'll always be using the knowledge that's displayed on the circle.

However, the more you become familiar with the patterns that chords and scales fall into on the guitar, the less you'll need to refer back to the circle on paper.

 

[david moon]

I IV V is a relative relationship.If someone calls out key of Bb, you should be able to figure out Bb Eb F. On guitar there are many movable chord shapes so you just need to know where the root is to anchor the chord

 

[Crossroads]

I don't know if this is what you are looking for but in t's simplest form

If you are starting on a 6 string root in G, the I is the G at the 3rd fret, the IV is the 5 string root directly below in this case C (3rd fret) and the V chord is two frets up from the C in this case D (5th fret)

.If you are starting on a 5 string root in E, the I is the E is at the 7th fret, the IV is the 6 string root two frets down in this case A (5th fret 6th string) and the V chord is two frets up from the A in this case B (7th fret), also directly over the 5th string root (E)

So my theory sucks but,if I know the key (usually the 1st chord in the progression) I know the IV and V chords based on their relative position.

This is the same all across the neck
All 6 string roots drop to the 5th string (IV), then move up two frets for the V chord.
All 5 string roots go to 6th string root 2 frets lower (IV) and directly above the 5 string root for the V chord.

Now my head hurts

 

[david moon]

I don't know if this is what you are looking for but in t's simplest form

If you are starting on a 6 string root in G, the I is the G at the 3rd fret, the IV is the 5 string root directly below in this case C (3rd fret) and the V chord is two frets up from the C in this case D (5th fret)

.If you are starting on a 5 string root in E, the I is the E is at the 7th fret, the IV is the 6 string root two frets down in this case A (5th fret 6th string) and the V chord is two frets up from the A in this case B (7th fret), also directly over the 5th string root (E)

So my theory sucks but,if I know the key (usually the 1st chord in the progression) I know the IV and V chords based on their relative position.

This is the same all across the neck
All 6 string roots drop to the 5th string (IV), then move up two frets for the V chord.
All 5 string roots go to 6th string root 2 frets lower (IV) and directly above the 5 string root for the V chord.

Now my head hurts

Your head shouldn't hurt, you are right.

 

[Crossroads]

My head hurt cause I don't like havin to think about things, I don't have to think about.

 

[MikeR]

Everyone said it far better than I could, but who's this "Mr. Hamlin" guy?

 

[MikeS]

This morning I witched Mr.Hamlin's latest offering- "Finding the I, IV & V etc". While trying to digest it I automatically picked up my circle of fifths to compare as a visual. Ummm, while learning the blues and its broken theory is this an acceptable "tool" for reference as you try and get it under your belt? Or on the other side, should I forget that I have it? I get that most of you here are light years ahead of me, but I am trying to get up to some sort of speed in all of this and don't want to take a wrong turn. I wish Griff might see this and insert some wisdom

Please take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt...
While I'm "familiar" with the circle of 5ths, I don't really know it and I certainly don't use it. Probably because Griff doesn't or didn't teach it for the first few years I was learning from him. I think the only reason he created a lesson about it is because so many people kept asking about it.
If it is something you have learned, it is already ingrained, then great, by all means use it, but I haven't found it necessary...
Maybe that's why I'm not further along than I am?

 

[JohnHurley]

Theory is great as long as it doesnt get in the way of practice time!

 

[Elio]

I mostly just use the circle if 5ths to interpret the key signature in sheet music. I still don't know why they don't just name the key instead of counting sharps and flats.

@EllenHarvey, you may want to consider doing the first few lessons of Griff's theory course if you have access to it. He does an excellent job of starting at the very beginning and putting everything into perspective.

 

[Paleo]

still don't know why they don't just name the key instead of counting sharps and flats.

If they just name the key, it's up to the musician to know what the #'s and b's are in that key.

If they don't know, the key signature tells you what they are.

For example, if they just say it's in the Key of A, I need to know that I have to sharp every C, F & G I see.

If I see 3#'s in a Key Signature, I know it's in A and all C, F & G's need to be sharped, but someone else may need a "reminder".

However, a Blues in A isn't really "in A". So if the Key signature is for A (with 3#'s) and you're playing a solo in A minor pentatonic, every C & G will need a natural sign to show they are not to be sharped.

On the other hand, if there was no Key signature, the solo wouldn't need any natural signs, but the chords would have to have sharps added.

Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Using patterns on the guitar, along with tab, you don't have to worry about any of this, except "matching" a pattern/box to a Key or chord.

Reading Standard Notation, you do.


The same kind of problem arises when publishing songs in modes.

Will you see the Key signature of the parent scale?

Or the Key signature of the tonic chord and accidentals throughout the piece?

Or will they just say the mode it's in and expect the musician to know what to do?

 

[Paleo]

Back to the original post.....

Knowing how to find the I,IV & V etc. on the guitar, as Griff demonstrated in the video, is the Circle of Fifths still a valuable tool?

I look at it like a map.

It will show you how to get where you need to go.

Once you know how to get there you don't need the map any more.

That doesn't invalidate the map.

Someone else may need it.

Or you could show them the way.

Or a different way.

Or a short-cut.

That still doesn't invalidate the info on the map.

It's there if you need it, if you don't you don't.

(Since Griff taught me scale and chord formulas I haven't opened a scale or chord book in years.)


It's a visual representation of how our system of music is organized.

The notes around the circle represent the 12 notes of the chromatic scale.

It's the same for all musicians regardless of the instrument they play.

Or if they play an instrument at all.

A guitarist will learn how to apply it to patterns on the fretboard.

A keyboardist will learn how to apply it to patterns on the keyboard.

etc, etc

You could learn how music is organized without a circular diagram.

However, there's a lot you could learn from it.

From page 17, Guitar Theory Made Useful (And Easy):

"Keep in mind that the circle of 5ths makes a good calculator. Ideally you'll get to a point where you have it memorized and won't have to keep it handy anymore."

 

[Elio]

If they just name the key, it's up to the musician to know what the #'s and b's are in that key.

If they don't know, the key signature tells you what they are.

For example, if they just say it's in the Key of A, I need to know that I have to sharp every C, F & G I see.

If I see 3#'s in a Key Signature, I know it's in A and all C, F & G's need to be sharped, but someone else may need a "reminder".

However, a Blues in A isn't really "in A". So if the Key signature is for A (with 3#'s) and you're playing a solo in A minor pentatonic, every C & G will need a natural sign to show they are not to be sharped.

On the other hand, if there was no Key signature, the solo wouldn't need any natural signs, but the chords would have to have sharps added.

Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Using patterns on the guitar, along with tab, you don't have to worry about any of this, except "matching" a pattern/box to a Key or chord.

Reading Standard Notation, you do.


The same kind of problem arises when publishing songs in modes.

Will you see the Key signature of the parent scale?

Or the Key signature of the tonic chord and accidentals throughout the piece?

Or will they just say the mode it's in and expect the musician to know what to do?

Wouldn't the assumption be that if one knows it is in the key of A, they would also know how to construct the A major scale and the appropriate sharps and flats for that key? In other words, you can deduce the sharps and flats from the key, or you can determine the key from the sharps and flats, but it seems that knowing the key is easier than remembering how many sharps or flats are associated with it.

 

[Jalapeno]

Elio key signatures were developed as a shorthand for composers and type setters. In the past when manuscripts were written by hand and later with musical typeset was developed you can imagine the amount of time and effort that was saved by not having to set in every accidental for a key like B major. The side effect that the sheet music is less cluttered and easier for the musician to read is a bonus!

Key signatures are a part of music theory but are also a result of publishing theory. Much the same as using straight eight notation with the comment “swing eighths” so the composer/publisher doesn’t have to write dotted quarters with eighths all the time.

Eric

 

[Jalapeno]

While I'm "familiar" with the circle of 5ths, I don't really know it and I certainly don't use it.

Yeah it is more of a composition and theory tool and not so much a performance tool. Is can be useful when you need it as it’s kind of like a capo for theory.

 

[Elio]

I was trying to reply to @Paleo's post but I am getting an "unauthorized access" error so I am sincerely hoping that he didn't block me. If I came across as being unreasonably argumentative or offensive, I apologize as that was not my intent. I'm certain there are really good reasons for key signatures being done that way, so it is more a question of curiosity on my part rather than my thinking I know better than the people who know this stuff far better than I do. Although my ability to sight read has been long-gone since high school, I do make it a point to try to understand the theory and integrate it into my playing and practice.

If you can see this, please accept my apologies, @Paleo.

 

[Paleo]

@Elio I certainly would never block you. I have no idea what happened.

 

[david moon]

Well, having some classical training and also playing in big band and pit orchestras, the key signature is sort of a pattern recognition thing- you see it, recognize the key, and set your mind to playing the right positions with the right sharps or flats. When getting a new piece of sheet music, the first thing I will do is a quick scan to see what key(s) it is in and where the key changes are.

Kind of like on guitar if you know you are playing G C D you will have certain positions and licks in mind. If playing E A B, a different set of positions and licks.

 

[Paleo]

The "key" is experience and/or memorization.

Are we talking about reading standard notation or just jamming when someone says a song is in a particular key?

If someone tells me the song is going to be in A Major I know what notes are sharp and the chords in the key.

I don't have to spend any time figuring them out. (I also know my birthday, social, phone number, etc without thinking about it.)

A beginner would need some kind of process to figure it out. The key signature would help.

If I see 3 sharps in a key signature I don't actually have to consciously count them or figure out what they are. As David says, I just recognize that's the key signature for A Major (or possibly F# minor).

If someone calls out a "Blues in A", that's a different animal, but I still know what's up.

Telling me the key or showing me the key signature are two ways of telling me the same thing.

Either way I can tell you the notes and chords in the key.

If we're talking specifically about playing the guitar, yes, it would be easier to just know the key is A and play a pattern and not have to even realize that any of the notes are actually sharped.

If I'm playing the piano, I pretty much have to know when to play one of them black keys.


(Somehow I just feel like I'm just rambling on about this stuff. It's probably because I deleted 2 previous attempts at posting a response that @Elio got some kind of error message if he was trying to respond to something what was no longer there????. I need some sleep. Good night, all.)