Timing issues part Duex...

Ted_Zeppelin

I’ll agree with you so that both of us are wrong.
Reading Damo's "timing frustration" post reminds me of how inadequate I have been at counting/playing at the same time. Something has come up recently that has really pointed out to me how much practice I need regarding counting. I picked up a Beat Buddy drum pedal a few weeks back and have been having a great deal of fun playing along with this drum machine. I have also been starting to use the looper function on my Helix. Used alone, these two things are great fun. My issue comes in when I start a drum pattern and then record a loop with the drums. Unless I hit the start and stop loop buttons exactly in time, the loop will either be way out of time with the drums (if I really miss it) or the loop will gradually get out of sync with the drums. Every now and then I will hit it just right so that the loop keeps right in time with the drum beat. I have been making myself count out the beats as I play the loop, trying to hit the start / stop right on the 1. If nothing else, this is good practice but can also be very frustrating every time I hear the loop stray away from the drum beat. I am sure that a lot of it is my timing and my ability to hit the looper buttons exactly on time. Other than the practice that I am doing now, do any of you have any suggestions? Like I said, I thought I was doing pretty good with the looper by itself but once I added the drum pedal into the mix, it showed that I was not looping as accurately as I thought I was.
 

david moon

Attempting the Blues
I don't know much about loopers but it sounds like the drum machine and looper are autonomous with no way to sync to each other. I suspect even it you got the looper "perfectly" in sync, if you waited long enough they would drift out of sync.Is there a way to input the drum machine into the looper and capture that, then layer the next part on top of that?
 

Ted_Zeppelin

I’ll agree with you so that both of us are wrong.
Toss them both out and just use a good backing track. There are thousands of them out there for pennies. It is just beyond me why anyone would mess with a looper and drum machine/pedal?

I knew that I could count on you for some very helpful suggestions:Beer:. I use backing tracks all of the time and enjoy them very much. Using a looper is a whole different ballgame, but very fun and enjoyable in it own right. Two different things and both are just as viable to me. There are a lot of guitar players that put together some amazing music just by layering tracks using a looper. So no...I am not going to just toss them out.
 

Ted_Zeppelin

I’ll agree with you so that both of us are wrong.
I don't know much about loopers but it sounds like the drum machine and looper are autonomous with no way to sync to each other. I suspect even it you got the looper "perfectly" in sync, if you waited long enough they would drift out of sync.Is there a way to input the drum machine into the looper and capture that, then layer the next part on top of that?

David, you are correct that they are separate and there is no way that I know of to combine them both into one recording. I can get them synced up to where I can play the loop for as long as I want to and it stays in sync with the drums, but so far, this is not my normal result. This is the first day working with both of them together and I did get better at it the more I practiced. I think it's just a matter of getting my foot in sync with the beat in order to hit the start/stop at precisely the right time.
 

OG_Blues

Guitar Geezer
I am not at all surprised that two separate pedals in a looping mode will drift farther and farther apart. It only takes a very minor error that will accumulate over each pass through the loop to become very noticeable.
A Trio+ pedal would be a much better solution for this with much less frustration.

An already accomplished player will no doubt get more mileage and practice by using backing tracks as their go to tool, however, a looper can be an extremely valuable tool for beginner and intermediate level players honing their skills. There are many various ways to use one for practicing and learning that are very effective. To not consider using one as part of the learning process would be a mistake for most people.
The ready availability of a wide range of backing tracks is indeed a wonderful thing.
These days, we have some really great tools to assist with the learning process. Use them all.
 

Momantai

Red nose, red guitar
The problem with those looper pedals is that they are not musicians.:sneaky:
They only hear themselves and don’t listen to their bandmates. o_O
They don’t even listen to me ! :eek:
And I’m the drummer ! :mad:
 

Rancid Rumpboogie

Blues Mangler
You serious? [rhetorical].
Yep. I have tried two loopers. Got nothing from them but acute frustration. I have yet to be able to get a loop to start and stop for a seamless loop, which makes them utterly useless (at least for me). Same problem that I believe the OP mentioned. So yes, I am absolutely serious. Not worth the frustration.
 

JestMe

Student Of The Blues
While no way am I professing to be any kind of a looping guru. I have come across a couple tricks that may be helpful to others reading this thread... It definitely takes some practice to create a decent loop.

When creating a new loop...
1. Have a metronome playing... like a click track. This will help to ensure that the tempo is consistent throughout and doesn't have a speed bump on the seam each time it plays back.
2. Start playing before kicking in the looper. This helps to get the start and stop points established better. Using a standard 12 bar as an example, perhaps run through the turnaround 1st before kicking in the looper. Just as you approach the I chord at the beginning of a 12 bar cycle kick the looper in then at the end of the turn around kick the looper off.

I hope that is helpful to someone.
 

OG_Blues

Guitar Geezer
Good tips from JestMe. #2 especially - Never stomp the button and then start playing at the same time1. You need to be playing and then hit the button, just like tapping your foot on the beat.
Almost all "modern" music related tools like recorders, DAWs, loopers, drum machines, etc etc require one to make the effort to learn how to use it properly and then practice using it. Some are better than others, and some are easier to use than others, but it still takes some patience and effort to get to a point where the tool becomes productive for you. Anyone that can play guitar can learn to use these tools - if you really want to. Some people will benefit more from them than others depending on what you want / need to learn or improve, and where you are in your personal music journey.
 

MarkDyson

Blues Hound Wannabe
My in-person guitar (soon also to be bass) teacher is big on using a looper as a practice tool; even so, after quality instruction, I still goof it up more often than not. Like playing in general, takes practice and focus to get it right. :Beer:
 

MarkDyson

Blues Hound Wannabe
On a related note, there are loopers that use MIDI signals to sync the loop with another signal. The Beat Buddy can talk to them. They're spendy (and IIRC also fiddly to learn how to use) but out there.

Last related comment: I'm a big fan of the TRIO+ as an all-in-one backing track/looper solution and what little solo experimenting I've done to date relies heavily on mine. :Beer:
 
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Ted_Zeppelin

I’ll agree with you so that both of us are wrong.
I had a Trio+ when they first came out but for whatever reason, I could not bond with it. I probably just didn’t spend enough time with it and ended up selling it on eBay. As for the Helix looper, I have gotten a lot better at getting a decent start and stop on the loop, so I have no issues using the looper by itself. Maybe using a looper and a Beat Buddy together is just more difficult to sync up than I thought. I just assumed it was my lack of “finding the beat” exactly when clicking the start and stop button. I will keep practicing and as long as it forces me to count out loud as I play, it is a good thing! I appreciate all of the pointers, except the one suggesting I throw them in the trash:rolleyes:.
 

PCM

Spring, Texas
Counting is very difficult unless you started on day1.

Sometimes it's a little easier to understand the difficulty by knowing what it is exactly that you're asking your brain to do...multi-task!

Your brain is a finely-tuned, digital computer...it can't do more than one digital operation at a time...it can only appear that way by switching digitally between multiple tasks in a quick enough manner that it appears things are happening simultaneously. If you're "thinking" about the timing, saying it and playing it at what appears to be the same time, that's a tremendous amount of "switching" going on in your brain to make it a appear simultaneous.

It just takes a lot of practice. If you're like me without a shred of "guitar DNA," it takes lots and lots of practice. :)

I just figure if it were easy, everyone would be a Clapton or Bonamassa...it is tremendously fun, but it isn't easy.
 

Jalapeno

Student Of The Blues
I know some people on this forum don't like them at all but I prefer a looper with quantizing. I've never had a single timing issue when using a looper with quantizing. I've had absolutely nothing but timing issues with loopers without it. And it isn't just practice, it's me. I need a quantizer with a looper so I can think about WHAT to play instead of thinking about WHEN to play. It really made my life with looping so much easier.

YMMV

Eric
 

Jalapeno

Student Of The Blues
@Jalapeno : What quantizing looper do you use ?

After trying dozens of loopers including the Ditto and the RC-3 I settled on the Digitech JamMan Delay. But... it was discontinued around 2013.

In this video you'll see somewhat a demo of quantizing. The record button is on the bottom left of the unit and notice that he doesn't need to time when he activates record, because he set up the quantizer with the tap tempo at the beginning.


I'll see if I can record a video of me using it since watching a pro do it can make it seem easier than it is. It might take me a day or two to get my stuff out and put together for recording.

Eric
 
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