Time Signatures. Counting and Confusion

[AndrewMcKelvey]

I have been mulling over this debate in my head for years and never got it any clearer and it still confuses me and not some thing I truly understand. Even asking this question confirms in my mind I don't really know what I talking about.

In music we have quarter notes, eighth notes sixteenth etc and then we have time signatures which indicate how many beats to the bar we have and the number of notes per beat, ie in 4/4 time we have 4 beats to the bar and a quarter note gets 1 beat and likewise if we play eighth notes that's two notes per beat (aka 1 and 2 and etc ).

The confusion reigns with triplets etc, each beat gets three eighth notes, ( 1 and da, 2 and da etc ) but hears the rub, a bar subdivided by 4 beats and each beat get 3 notes, that adds up to 12 notes in a bar therefore why do we continue calling them eighth notes and not twelfth notes?

Also if we play at 80 beats per minute the song in 4/4 time would need 20 bars to last a minute, if you played the same tune but faster it wouldn't last as long but we speed up and slow down tunes all the time so what changes, number of notes per beat, number of beats per bar, or just play more of the same?

Any help to clarify would be appreciated because I have ignored the concept for nearly 50 years and when I am being told on a daily basis to count, count I do but I have no idea what I am counting or why and for the intervening years learning to keep time by ear seems to have kept me happy but I have never really improved my overall playing if I'm honest, now I am retired I feel I have more time to devote to practise and getting it right.

 

[Paleo]

Add number of notes per minute to your "calculations".

Changing the tempo won't change the number of measures or the number of beats per measure or the number of notes per beat.

Increasing the tempo will increase the number of notes you play per minute.

You will be picking faster.

The song will take less time.

But you still play the same number of measures and the same total number of notes.

Like driving from point A to point B.

Taking the same route at a greater speed will get you there sooner, but doesn't change the route.

Vice versa for a slower tempo.

 

[Paleo]

Regarding triplets, that's just the way it is. Each note value is 1/2 of the previous. There are no 3, 6 or 12s.

4 beats of 8th note triplets will, however, give you 12 "counts"..... 3 counts/beat (1 and uh, 2 and uh, etc.).

Which is easier than actually counting to 12 in each measure.

Or instead of writing in 4/4, you could write in 12/8 which would have 12 "normal" 8th notes per measure.

Which would still be counted the same way.

 

[Shodai]

I concur with Paleo.

Your example of speeding up and slowing down makes the mistake of assuming that if you speed up and slow down the tempo marking doesn't change.

Tempo markings are a "recommended" tempo for the song. A piece with a tempo marking of 80 might sound better played faster, at a tempo of 90 for instance. In that case the recommend tempo marking becomes irrelevant, because you're actually playing at 90bpm.

To answer your question, the only thing that changed is the speed. The number of notes, number of beats, number of measures stays exactly the same. Only the speed changes.

Triplets... Yeah... Well.

Triplets are a great thing, they make the music shuffle, they make the music swing.

They're are no 1/12 notes. All the note values are derived from the Whole Note, dividable by two

One whole = two halfs
One half = two quarters
One quarter = two eighths
One eighth = two sixteenths
And, if you're bold and daring
One sixteenth = two sixty fourths

Then we have triplets.

One way of dealing with triplets is to write a song in 12/8. Common shuffle and swing feel.

But if you're playing something that isn't a shuffle or a swing, with more of a straight feel, a triplet can add to the feel, especially in a solo.

So we have triplets.

The triplet is three notes tied together, and are meant to to fill the same space as the two notes they represent:

1/4 note triplets fit three notes in the space of 2 quarter notes

1/8 note triplets fit three notes in the space of 2 eighth notes.

The triplet is only one iteration of the "tuplet", which is best described as any rhythm that involves dividing the beat into a different number of equal subdivisions from that normally permitted by the time signature.

They're are others. Drummers often use quintuplets (groups of 5), and septuplets (groups of 7)

Usually, triplets are an "odd" number, not dividable by "2".

Hope I didn't confuse you even more.

 

[AndrewMcKelvey]

I have always had it in my mind that the naming of the notes meant some thing in time, which is probably why I have found it confusing, in reality a quarter note is twice as long as an eighth note and four times as long as a sixteenth and the length of the note depends upon the tempo, ie a slow blues 8th note could / would be longer in duration than an 8th note in a shuffle blues.

The notes could in reality be called apples oranges and pears and so long as the timing relationship is the same, an apple is twice as big as an orange and four times bigger than a pear nothing changes.. just the handle. Lets see if it makes a difference.

I think I get the 4/4 triplets being 12/8. I sort of put that in the box along with all the other stuff that actually is the same but different if you get my meaning

 

[Paleo]

in reality a quarter note is twice as long as an eighth note and four times as long as a sixteenth and the length of the note depends upon the tempo, ie a slow blues 8th note could / would be longer in duration than an 8th note in a shuffle blues.

You got it.

Note values are relative to each other and have nothing to do with the actual real time that they last.

Regardless of the tempo, a quarter will always last twice as long as the 8th.

If you pick up the tempo they both would last for less time and however long the quarter lasts the 8th would still be half of that amount of time.

If you slow things down the quarter will last longer and the 8th will still last half as long as that.

 

[luckylarry]

I look at this as a quarter note=1 beat; 2 1/8 notes is a quarter divided by 2. then for me a triplet is a 1/4 note dived by 3. Hope this makes sense. It is just the way i look at this.

 

[david moon]

I look at this as a quarter note=1 beat; 2 1/8 notes is a quarter divided by 2. then for me a triplet is a 1/4 note dived by 3. Hope this makes sense. It is just the way i look at this.

The quarter note divided into eighths and sixteenths is the basis for a lot of funk rhythm.

At rehearsal tonight I was playing Jackson 5 ABC and I want you back. No hint of shuffle there.

4/4 with each beat divided into 3 can be seen as 12/8. And the feel is described as shuffle or swing.Sometimes it is notated as 12/8 and sometimes it is notated as 4/4 but any pair of eighth notes should be treated as a triplet with the first having the value of 2 beats and the second of one ,just a notational shortcut.

 

[Bluez Mark]

I learned another way to count out triplet while earning a music degree, was to clap out the rhythm and count aloud, 1& triplet 3& 4& 1& triplet 3& 4&. Each triplet with three claps= tr pl et. I always clap and count out the rhythm parts, that’s what they taught in college.

 

[david moon]

I learned another way to count out triplet while earning a music degree, was to clap out the rhythm and count aloud, 1& triplet 3& 4& 1& triplet 3& 4&. Each triplet with three claps= tr pl et. I always clap and count out the rhythm parts, that’s what they taught in college.

This reminds me of a college class where the prof offered an obviously wrong solution, and my reply was accepted as an "alternate solution".
You can count eighths as 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &
You can count 16ths as 1 e & u 2 e & u 3 e & u 4 e & u
You can count shuffle/swing triplet feel as 1 & u 2 & u 3 & u 4 & u


"1& triplet 3& 4& 1& triplet 3& 4&" from the above post- what the hell is that?

 

[PapaRaptor]

"1& triplet 3& 4& 1& triplet 3& 4&" from the above post- what the hell is that?

I believe he was only noting the second beat as using a triplet. It jibes with what I was taught, tri - puh - let.

 

[Shodai]

"1& triplet 3& 4& 1& triplet 3& 4&" from the above post- what the hell is that?

Beat one = Two eighth notes,
Beat two = three notes as 8th note triplet Beat three = two eighth notes
Beat four =two eighth notes

It was also an exercise I did when learning drums. Play eighths, but add triplets on one beat of the measure. The beginnings of learning to separate the rhythmic patterns, and laying the foundations for polyrhythms later on.


This, for example, would be counted:

One-and, trip-a-let, one-and, trip-a-let

Or however you like to count your triplet. Being a two syllable word, I was actually taught to count it as part of the beat,

One-and, two-trip-let, one-and, two-trip-let

Either way, same same

 

[Bluez Mark]

This reminds me of a college class where the prof offered an obviously wrong solution, and my reply was accepted as an "alternate solution".
You can count eighths as 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &
You can count 16ths as 1 e & u 2 e & u 3 e & u 4 e & u
You can count shuffle/swing triplet feel as 1 & u 2 & u 3 & u 4 & u


"1& triplet 3& 4& 1& triplet 3& 4&" from the above post- what the hell is that?

If you will read the latter part of the post
each triplet you clap 3 times for 1 beat, so for every triplet there are 3 equal notes in one beat, the usage of the word is tool to help to learn to apply a triplet.

 

[Paleo]

"1& triplet 3& 4& 1& triplet 3& 4&" from the above post- what the hell is that?

Which could also be counted "1 & 2 trip let 3 & 4 &,etc".

Seems "odd"not to at least say "2"?

Which could also be counted "1 and 2 and uh 3 and 4 and", etc.

Or any number of different ways of using 2 syllables and 3 syllables.

Or 2 claps and 3 claps.

Or any way of keeping track of 3 equally spaced things happening in the "normal" space of 2.

Apple-pineapple-apple-apple

Some nits ain't worth picking.

 

[Shodai]

Apple-pineapple-apple-apple

I like that... If you can say it, you can play it!

Now I want pineapple...

 

[david moon]

Which could also be counted "1 & 2 trip let 3 & 4 &,etc".

Seems "odd"not to at least say "2"?

Which could also be counted "1 and 2 and uh 3 and 4 and", etc.

Or any number of different ways of using 2 syllables and 3 syllables.

Or 2 claps and 3 claps.

Or any way of keeping track of 3 equally spaced things happening in the "normal" space of 2.

Apple-pineapple-apple-apple

Some nits ain't worth picking.

If the intent was to count straight eighths on 1, 3, and 4, an 8th note triplets on beat 2, well OK.
I was taking it as how to count a shuffle or 12/8 feel with triplets on every beat, which it is not.
I would suggest that learning to count a steady triplet feel is a precursor to weaving in and out of straight and triiplet feel
Not picking nits, I really didn't understand the notation presented.

I see that while composing this, my questions have been answered.

So on a related note, can you do both simultaneously?

 

[Shodai]

If by both simultaneously you mean straight eighths and 8th triplets at the same time? Yup!
4 over 3, and 3 over 4 poly rhythms make for some interesting rhythms. Fives over four are a blast as well.

 

[david moon]

If by both simultaneously you mean straight eighths and 8th triplets at the same time? Yup!
4 over 3, and 3 over 4 poly rhythms make for some interesting rhythms. Fives over four are a blast as well.

I think I will have to pass on 5 over 4. Do you have any videos?

 

[Shodai]

I think I will have to pass on 5 over 4. Do you have any videos?

This one is pretty basic 5 over 4 rhythm.

This is a great demonstration on 3 over 4, and 5 over 4 with examples of musical application (ie: songs you've heard), and some polymetric applications for guitar with 7 over 4, 5 over 4, etc... Really good thorough explanation in terms most people can understand.

 

[david moon]

This one is pretty basic 5 over 4 rhythm.

This is a great demonstration on 3 over 4, and 5 over 4 with examples of musical application (ie: songs you've heard), and some polymetric applications for guitar with 7 over 4, 5 over 4, etc... Really good thorough explanation in terms most people can understand.

Thanks for the links. The first one, 5 over 4, I might be able to do if I listened to it enough.

This second one is a different concept. He is saying to use phrases of different lengths, not that they are different number of beats in the same measure. So when he talks about 4 over 3, the phrases get "out of sync" and then after 12 beats they are back in sync again.

This video by Rick Beato is pretty good about subdividing the same measure into different numbers, but I think the tempo in the examples is too fast so by the end with 32nd notes it's just crazy. Also he steps through the subdivisions (quarter, quartar triplet, eighth, eighth triplet etc.) so quickly that it's hard to get the "feel" berfore it moves on to the next.