The Weather---A very serious Post

OG_Blues

Guitar Geezer
The key to all of this isn't so much power generation but energy storage.

The point is that the market responded to the demand and the versatility and efficiency improved exponentially and I see no reason why solar and wind can't do the same given the proper stimulus to do so which of course is the demand.
Yes, energy storage capacity and the associated economics of it is definitely the key to making alternative energy sources viable and more widely used.
How the industry gets to the point of making it financially feasible for the average consumer is the difficult part. Lots of people desire more energy independence but do not have the resources to create the actual product demand. It has to get cheaper - a chicken or the egg type problem that typically exists with new technologies. Even with tax credits, and excess electric buy back promotional programs etc, the economics still aren't quite there. If they were, more people would be jumping on it. It will come in due time - I think we all wish it were sooner.
Wind and solar are only going to be a part of the future equation. There are many other exciting technologies being developed that show promise. I don't think it is likely that the next major breakthroughs are going to come from individual inventors working in their garages. Most of the new technologies are quite complex and require sophisticated equipment to further develop and bring to a practical scale, and are being developed in large labs and research facilities, many funded by the DOE - probably so that the government can get their fingers into it right from the start.

Re: Tesla - Are you sure this information is correct, or is this speculation? They do have a limited number of stores with actual vehicles on display, but granted it is a small presence compared to other manufacturers. I'm not sure this is due to actual laws, at least not everywhere. There are many other electric vehicle manufacturers, and if you compare their prices to the entry level Tesla, they are similar, so how could Tesla be legally singled out like that for discrimination or be such a threat to the other dealers? Plus, the other brands have much larger capacity to manufacture, so I don't quite follow the logic of that choice being a fossil fuel paradigm driven situation. I can only speculate myself, but I would guess that their sales model (direct sales vs. extensive brick and mortar facilities) is driven by the reality of their limited manufacturing capability at the present time.
 

JPsuff

Blackstar Artist
Yes, energy storage capacity and the associated economics of it is definitely the key to making alternative energy sources viable and more widely used.
How the industry gets to the point of making it financially feasible for the average consumer is the difficult part. Lots of people desire more energy independence but do not have the resources to create the actual product demand. It has to get cheaper - a chicken or the egg type problem that typically exists with new technologies. Even with tax credits, and excess electric buy back promotional programs etc, the economics still aren't quite there. If they were, more people would be jumping on it. It will come in due time - I think we all wish it were sooner.
Wind and solar are only going to be a part of the future equation. There are many other exciting technologies being developed that show promise. I don't think it is likely that the next major breakthroughs are going to come from individual inventors working in their garages. Most of the new technologies are quite complex and require sophisticated equipment to further develop and bring to a practical scale, and are being developed in large labs and research facilities, many funded by the DOE - probably so that the government can get their fingers into it right from the start.

Re: Tesla - Are you sure this information is correct, or is this speculation? They do have a limited number of stores with actual vehicles on display, but granted it is a small presence compared to other manufacturers. I'm not sure this is due to actual laws, at least not everywhere. There are many other electric vehicle manufacturers, and if you compare their prices to the entry level Tesla, they are similar, so how could Tesla be legally singled out like that for discrimination or be such a threat to the other dealers? Plus, the other brands have much larger capacity to manufacture, so I don't quite follow the logic of that choice being a fossil fuel paradigm driven situation. I can only speculate myself, but I would guess that their sales model (direct sales vs. extensive brick and mortar facilities) is driven by the reality of their limited manufacturing capability at the present time.


Solar IS getting cheaper as evidenced by the many houses in my neighborhood now sporting solar panels and solar cost has dropped by more than 50% in just the last several years and that is mostly a direct result of demand.

As for the Tesla thing, perhaps Musk has made some inroads in regard to dealerships but he has a very long way to go before we'd see a Tesla dealership down the block from Ford or Nissan.

As for alternative energy in general, we're reaching the tipping point at which people will have to make a conscious decision to go in that direction which, admittedly, will require a leap of faith in addition to a desire. But it's that way with many things. I imagine a similar situation existed when the steam engine made its presence known and then again when the internal combustion engine came a long. I'm sure there was resistance for many reasons but once it was clear that those two technologies were superior to what came before, it became a no-brainer.

That's where alternative energy is now and I think that in time people will see the value and the promise and take that leap of faith.
And that speaks to the other technologies you mention as well because once people commit to alternative energy then the door opens for myriad technologies to be developed.

In many ways I think that the turmoil that exists in this country right now (on a variety of fronts) as well as in the world at large is a necessary evil. Regardless of your point of view, what's happening now serves to point out what's wrong with the way we think (or have been thinking) and it's causing many people to consider the future not just of the United States but of humanity. And though we have a lot to consider and a long way to go, I'm optimistic about the future and I believe that once we as a species get whatever is bugging us out of our systems we'll take the necessary steps to ensure that future.

At least I hope so. :Beer:
 

OG_Blues

Guitar Geezer
Solar IS getting cheaper as evidenced by the many houses in my neighborhood now sporting solar panels and solar cost has dropped by more than 50% in just the last several years and that is mostly a direct result of demand.

As for the Tesla thing, perhaps Musk has made some inroads in regard to dealerships but he has a very long way to go before we'd see a Tesla dealership down the block from Ford or Nissan.
Maybe not. Tesla dealer at 160 Walt Whitman Rd Huntington Station NY is just a couple miles down the road from Ford Lincoln of Huntington on Rte 25. They have cars on the showroom floor. Their number is 631-760-2481 if you want to call and reserve one. I think $2500 deposit is all it takes. :) Now, I do agree that it will be a while before Tesla has a dealer down the street from every Ford dealer. (Just yanking your chain.)

Yes, solar equipment is getting cheaper, but considering most of them come from China, I have to wonder and worry whether the prices are artificially low, or if future political events might change those price levels or availability. I hope not!
In this part of the country, there is no noticeable sign of increased solar installations. I think it still has a ways to go to reach critical mass where prices really get good. There's a lot more to a complete working and practical system than just buying some panels when you consider installation, battery bank, controller, wiring into the home electrical system, etc.

I think there is going to be a lot more development of technologies that lend themselves to providing more local generation / distribution to alleviate cost and losses in transmission, and provide more diversity of sources that new technologies will offer - that is long way off though I fear.
 

sloslunas

NM Blues
I have been biting my lip since this was originally posted. I thought to myself that this is going to cause world war 3. That being said, I have been thoroughly impressed with how this thread has gone. Civil discourse is extremely rare on any social media outlet (none of which I would ever subscribe to because I am here to learn about the blues). You all have been extremely courteous to each other throughout this discussion. I cannot tell you how happy I am that we can have a very useful discussion about matters that effect us all without denigrating each other. This has been my dream and goal since day one. I have been so impressed with the brain power, problem solving skills, musical talent...that I am often rendered speechless. That being said...you guys are a lot smarter than you look!! Nuff said about that...carry on fine sirs.

Steve
 

Grateful_Ed

Student Of The Blues
I have been biting my lip since this was originally posted. I thought to myself that this is going to cause world war 3. That being said, I have been thoroughly impressed with how this thread has gone. Civil discourse is extremely rare on any social media outlet (none of which I would ever subscribe to because I am here to learn about the blues). You all have been extremely courteous to each other throughout this discussion. I cannot tell you how happy I am that we can have a very useful discussion about matters that effect us all without denigrating each other. This has been my dream and goal since day one. I have been so impressed with the brain power, problem solving skills, musical talent...that I am often rendered speechless. That being said...you guys are a lot smarter than you look!! Nuff said about that...carry on fine sirs.

Steve
DUH! ;)
 

JPsuff

Blackstar Artist
I have been biting my lip since this was originally posted. I thought to myself that this is going to cause world war 3. That being said, I have been thoroughly impressed with how this thread has gone. Civil discourse is extremely rare on any social media outlet (none of which I would ever subscribe to because I am here to learn about the blues). You all have been extremely courteous to each other throughout this discussion. I cannot tell you how happy I am that we can have a very useful discussion about matters that effect us all without denigrating each other. This has been my dream and goal since day one. I have been so impressed with the brain power, problem solving skills, musical talent...that I am often rendered speechless. That being said...you guys are a lot smarter than you look!! Nuff said about that...carry on fine sirs.

Steve


Steve, what you wrote is the primary reason why I love this place!

Intelligent people, varied opinions (sometimes polar opposites) and from all walks of life - yet everyone respects one another and if we cross a line we own up to it, apologize and move on.

THAT is what a civilized society is supposed to be and I for one am damned glad to be a part of this group!
 

blackcoffeeblues

Student Of The Blues
(this is a follow up---)You are all talking about storage---The sunrises everyday----there are so many ways to use it to your benefit that all of you are neglecting to recognize----one of the best ways is a green house, not only can you grow your own food (which your wife MIGHT ENJOY ) it can be used for heating your home and supplying you with hot water. three of your biggest exspenses. (other than your GAS) Years ago (many) --A man who lived in eastern Washington---went to junk yards and they would give him the old windshields and glass out of the vehicles. He used the confex side on the out side in the summer then in the winter he had a mobile set up with the confex glass on the inside "only reversed". In the summer the sun supplied the heat for his green house--in the winter he rolled the reversed glass up against the exterior creating the magnafying effect of a magnifying glass. He centered them on black 55 gallon barrels of LAVE ROCK, that heats easily and HOT--holds heat for hours, long enough for the sun to come up again. pretty cheap way to create your own system without having to pay the regulators. Green as it gets..
 

david moon

Attempting the Blues
Tell me about it I'm meant to be playing golf this afternoon:eek:
Though I suspect those are yesterdays figures and the wind has dropped considerably today.

cheers

Al.
The web site I linked too has real time data. Although it's for the country as a whole and might not tell you much about your particular area.
 

david moon

Attempting the Blues
A few more links for y'all

Firefighter concerns

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/0...by-dangers-posed-by-rooftop-solar-panels.html

This is a fairly long article about wind that touches on abandoned wind farms, bird/bat deaths from the turbines, and the market distortion caused by govt subsidies

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2010/02/wind_energys_ghosts_1.html

breakthroughs in batteries?

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/534866/why-we-dont-have-battery-breakthroughs/

Legal issues with solar (own, lease, allow a third party to use your roof)

https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2013/03/what-are-legal-issues-in-solar-energy/
 

Al Holloway

Devizes UK
I've always wondered. As the prevailing wind in a set location goes in a single direction. If we build to many wind farms would they cause the earth to spin faster or slower, depending on which direction the wind was in. Like a boats propeller. And if so do we need a global wind farm policy to make sure we build as may east facing as west facing to cancel this out?

cheers

Al.
 

Wildwood

Playin' Blues
As for the Tesla thing, perhaps Musk has made some inroads in regard to dealerships but he has a very long way to go before we'd see a Tesla dealership down the block from Ford or Nissan.

Maybe not. Tesla dealer at 160 Walt Whitman Rd Huntington Station NY is just a couple miles down the road from Ford Lincoln of Huntington on Rte 25. They have cars on the showroom floor. Their number is 631-760-2481 if you want to call and reserve one. I think $2500 deposit is all it takes. :) Now, I do agree that it will be a while before Tesla has a dealer down the street from every Ford dealer. (Just yanking your chain.)

Tesla currently has around 100 dealerships in the US (they call them Stores or Galleries) and also in 20 or so other countries. Several of them are mall based and operate more as a showroom where customers can learn about the cars but can't purchase them there. Agreed they have a long way to go before catching up to Ford or Chevy!
 

Silicon Valley Tom

It makes me happpy to play The Blues!
We have a Tesla dealership in Sunnyvale.

Elon Musk is either innovative or insane. :eek:

Do you want to take a one way trip to Mars? Musk is your man! Sign up now - oh sorry it is too late! They chose the 100 passengers already. It is only a 7 month flight, so take along some form of entertainment. :rolleyes:

Do cell phones work in space? How about WiFi? Things could get rough without such things. Oh yes, bring along your own oxygen, water and food. A means to keep warm might be nice.

How about one of his electric cars? Just plank down $1000 to $2500 (depends on the model) and wait a few years – possible wait forever! It seems like Tesla publishes the total production per week, but customers do not seem to be receiving their cars as promised.

Tesla has about 10,000 employees and publishes they produce about 2000 cars a week. Tesla is located in the NUMMI plant where I worked for ten years, for Toyota and General Motors. NUMMI had 5000 employees and produced 6000 cars and trucks a week.

I might suggest not using a Tesla car in auto mode, as an Apple engineer found out a few days ago. RIP. :(

Want to travel from Los Angeles to San Francisco – underground? It will only take 30 minutes to travel the 350 miles. Just watch out for the sudden stop! :confused:

The expression “A man and his toys”, has a special meaning for those who are rich. Consideration should be given when it comes to having the potential of providing innovation at the risk of human life. Great ideas with little or no concern for consequences is reckless. But when you have money and power, who cares? :p

Tom
 

MarkDyson

Blues Hound Wannabe
I hear you, Tom; for my part, I have an excellent life filter. The contributions Musk has made to our body of knowledge fit well into my long term plan. I don't criticize the plans of others. :Beer:
 

blackcoffeeblues

Student Of The Blues
That's a good one Tom.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: as for long term plans---I gave up on them when I turned 60---now it is "make it through the day", it has worked for the past 13 years. (not criticizing) just the reality of my life, I still dream though.
 

OG_Blues

Guitar Geezer
I'm with you David - no such thing as long term any more - just trying to enjoy every day, or even just a part of the day sometimes!
Today was not one of them - wrestling with a Linux computer that does not want to cooperate.
Why do I beat myself up like this? I know better.
Honey, please bring me another Makers.
 

MikeS

Student Of The Blues
Staff member
The turn this thread has taken reminds me of the documentary of a concert from 1979 called "No Nukes.." It had everyone from James Taylor and Carly Simon (they were still married) to Bonnie Raitt and Bruce Springsteen. It was a really rocking show. Shortly after seeing it, I remember a comedian (might have been Sam Kinnison) made a comment about it. "All these musicians talking about banning nuclear energy... If they get their way they'll just have to sit at home playing their guitars through wood-burning amplifiers by candellight."


Except the wood burning would be banned because it's a worse pollutant than coal.
 
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