Still scratching my head over the Standard Harmony Rule

[MikeS]

Major key: I ii iii IV V vi vii (Major, minor, minor, major, major, minor, Dim)
Minor key: i II III iv v VI VII (minor, major, major, minor, minor, major, aug(?))

So....
I was looking at Evil Ways chords Gm C D and sometimes Dm (during "running & hiding all over town.."), so even though there is no F in the progression, is this the key of F because Gm doesn't seem to work (the C would have to be minor and it's not).
i II III iv v VI VII
Gm: Gm A B Cm Dm E Faug

I ii iii IV V vii vii
F: F Gm Am B C Dm Edim
X X X?

 

[jmin]

I always thought it was in Gm. I think this might be one of those “exception” things for the D chord. Need one of the theory gurus to explain it better!

 

[Paleo]

Minor key: i II III iv v VI VII (minor, major, major, minor, minor, major, aug(?))

Minor Key:

minor, dim, Major, minor, minor, Major, Major

Just rearrange the Major, starting from the vi.

vi viib5 I ii iii IV V = Major from the vi

Then renumber:

i iib5 III iv v VI V

Example:

Bb Major

Bb Cm Dm Eb F Gm Amb5

Put the vi (Gm) first:

G minor

Gm Amb5 Bb Cm Dm Eb F

Now the i, iv & v are minor and the III, VI & VII are Major (ii is diminished)

Same chords for both Bb Major and G minor, just starting from different chords, i.e. changing the tonal center.

These are Relative Major and minor. Also Ionian and Aeolian mode.

Any minor key starts from the vi of it's relative Major.

 

[Bolar]

When harmonizing the major & minor scales in triads, you get this:

Major: Maj, min, min,Maj, Maj, min, dim
Minor: min, dim, Maj, min, min,Maj, Maj

So you are half right .

If you want 7th chords, notice, that the dim triad becomes m7b5 or halfdiminished, not dim7.

Both the diminished 7th and the augmented chord are synthetic chords - they are not derived from any scale.

Where do you have the chords from?

The version I know uses Gm7, C7 & D. I don't see any d minor anywhere, even though it would fit.
As for the suitable scales, I would say G dorian over Gm - C and G harmonic minor over the D.
If there is a d min in your version, just stick to G dorian. Only the D doesn't fit that.

 

[Paleo]

The above Gm scale is the Natural Minor.

However, Evil Ways is in G Dorian.

So you start with the F Major scale:

F Gm Am Bb C Dm Emb5

And rearrange with the ii chord (Gm) first.

Gm Am Bb C Dm Emb5 F

The chord progression is simply Gm-C (i-IV in Dorian = ii-V in F, same thing)

Only Dorian will give you a minor i chord and a Major IV chord. (i-IV, as well as a i-ii progression.)

Then the Dm (v) chord is changed to a D7.

Changing the minor v chord to a dominant 7 chord is typical in minor progressions. (And requires the G Harmonic minor.)

 

[Paleo]

i II III iv v VI VII
Gm: Gm A B Cm Dm E Faug

I ii iii IV V vii vii
F: F Gm Am B C Dm Edim

Make the changes in red to your original and you've got it.

i iidim III iv v VI VII
Gm: Gm Adim Bb Cm Dm Eb F = G Natural minor

I ii iii IV V vi vii
F: F Gm Am Bb C Dm Edim = from Gm is G Dorian

Evil Ways is in G Dorian.

G Natural minor has the same chords as Bb Major counted from the vi.
G Dorian has the same chords as F Major counted from the ii.

 

[Paleo]

Yes it gets confusing. But you're just starting the SHR sequence of chords from a different chord in the sequence.

Major:

Major-minor-minor-Major-Major-minor-dim

F Gm Am Bb C Dm Ebdim


Natural Minor:

Start from the vi (Dm):

minor-dim-Major-minor-minor-Major-Major

Dm Ebdim F Gm Am Bb C


Dorian:

Start from the ii (Gm):

minor-minor-Major-Major-minor-dim-Major

Gm Am Bb C Dm Ebdim F


Mixolydian:

Start from the v (C):

Major-minor-dim-Major-minor-minor-Major

C Dm Ebdim F Gm Am Bb


None of the chords change. Just their function.

For example:

F is the I in F Major.
F is the III in D minor.
F is the VII in G Dorian.
F is the IV in C Mixolydian.

 

[jmin]

Excellent stuff, Gurus!

 

[Paleo]

Just like starting a Major scale from each note to get it's modes, you do the same with the chords built from each note.

C Major scale:

C D E F G A B

C Major chords:

C Dm Em F G Am Bdim


D Dorian scale: start C Major from D

D E F G A B C

D Dorian chords: Start C Major chords from Dm

Dm Em F G Am Bdim C


E Phrygian scale: start C Major from E
E Phrygian chords: start C Major chords from Em

F Lydian scale: start C Major from F
F Lydian chords: start C Major chords from F

G Mixolydian scale: start C Major from G
G Mixolydian chords: start C Major chords from G

A Aeolian scale: start C Major from A
A Aeolian chords: start C Major chords from Am

B Locrian scale: start C Major from B
B Locrian chords: start C Major chords from Bdim

 

[Paleo]

Every mode of a Major scale will have the same 3 Major chords, the same 3 minor chords and the same diminished chord.

They will each just shift one place to the left as you work your way down the list. The first chord will shift to the other end.

It's like a conveyer belt.

In C Major the red chord would be C.

(Maybe save this for reference?)


Ionian: I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-viidim (Major)

Dorian: i-ii-III-IV-v-vidim-VII (Dorian minor)

Phrygian: i-II-III-iv-vdim-VI-vii (Phrygian minor)

Lydian: I-II-iii-ivdim-V-vi-vii (Lydian Major)

Mixolydian: I-ii-iiidim-IV-v-vi-VII (Mixolydian Major)

Aeolian: i-iidim-III-iv-v-VI-VII (Natural minor)


Of course you could take each scale and harmonize it by building triads from its notes, just like you did the Major Scale.

"Shifting" the chords is quicker.

OK, I'm done.

 

[MikeS]

Well, I may be more confused than I was before. When you said it was in F, I understood, because that's what I had worked out, but then you said "Evil Ways is in Dorian G". I didn't realize that the "Greeks" were keys. I thought they were scales. Does that mean it's the Key of F, but play the Dorian G scale?

 

[Paleo]

Does that mean it's the Key of F, but play the Dorian G scale?

Sort of. Griff (and every other author I've read) would say it's in the Key of F, some will say it's not.

So I'll just say the Parent Scale is F Major.

G Dorian is the second mode of F Major.

F Major Scale = F G A Bb C D E
G Dorian Scale = G A Bb C D E F (Same notes but the tonal center is G)

Some people may think of it as playing the F Major scale from G.

Others may think of it as a G Major scale (G A B C D E F#) with a b3 and b7.

Or even G minor (G A Bb C D Eb F) with a raised 6.

It all works out the same: G A Bb C D E F

 

[Bolar]

Well, this will probably be a little tricky to explain, as it requires some theory. But first, it is NOT in the key of F.

There are defferent kinds of harmony. Among others, there are functional harmony and modal harmony. Sometimes tunes are written in either the one or the other, and sometimes tunes are partly in one, partly in the other.
"Keys" allways refer to functional harmony, not modal harmony. That's why there are only two kinds of "keys" - major and minor, but 7 modes.
"Evil Ways " are primarily modal, the only place where functional harmony is used, is where th D comes in.
So Evil Ways are in G dorian with a short passage in G minor. The G minor will be harmonic minor because of the major 3rd in the D.
The name of the scale ( key or mode) depends on which kind of harmony is used.
Imagine a tune, that uses the scale c,d,e,f,g,a,b,c with C as the tonal center. If it uses functional harmony, it is in the key of C major - but if it uses modal harmony it's in C Ionian. It's the same notes and same tonal center, but the harmony is different in nature.
That is why C major and C ionian aren't the same. Same thing with A minor and A aeolian. If you look at the scales, they appear to be the same, but looking at the underlying harmony, it is very different.
I hope it's not too confusing, but if it is, don't worry. As long as you know the tune and the chords you can play it

 

[JestMe]

I hope you don't take this as argumentative but... I have always heard and thought that C Major and C Ionian were the exact same thing. Mind if I ask you to explain how they are different?

Thanks

 

[Bolar]

I hope you don't take this as argumentative but... I have always heard and thought that C Major and C Ionian were the exact same thing. Mind if I ask you to explain how they are different?

Thanks

Actually, it's a very good question. Unfortunately, it's common to use the 2 names randomly, at least in some circles.
The short answer is, they are used differently. I think of it very similar to the way I use a toothbrush. I use it for 2 things, one is ofc to brush my teeth, the other is to clean the chain and gears on my bike. The two brushes are identical, but I wouldn't dream of using the same brush for both tasks. Same with the 2 scales. You start out with the same 7 notes, but the end result will always be very different, both harmonically and melodically, due to the different set of rules.

Every kind of music has a set of rules, that are different from other kinds of music, and modal and functional harmony are in fact very different.
The Ionian scale are much older than the major scale, so why did they invent a new name, instead of just keep using Ionian?
Most likely, because if you use the name as intended, it tells you 3 things: which notes, which root and which set of rules.
Used randomly, it only tells you 2 things: Which notes and which root.

Apparently someone suggested, that "Evil Ways" are in the key of F major, since the notes are the same. It's an honest mistake, the kind of mistakes we all make from time to time, but unfortunately, this removes "which root" from the info you get from the name, so only thing left is "which notes". The full consequence of this is, if it catches on, will be, that there are no modes and there are no minor - everything will just be "major". At a first glance, this appears to be much simpler, but the downside is, that it is also much less precise.

Obviously, it is possible to play music without any knowledge of music theory - in fact you don't need to know note names, keys or anything.
But for those who want to dig into theory and be able to communicate or seek information about music, beeing as precise as possible is the best way to succeed on those matters.
Funny enough, this is something most people allready know from their line of work, and music is no different and why some seems to think it is , is beyond me.

 

[MikeS]

I guess all of the above is interesting from an academic point of view, but where the rubber hits the road (On stage); do I tell other players that it is in F? G Dorian, Gm...

@Griff what are your thoughts.

 

[Paleo]

Most people will say it's in Gm. Some will realize it's actually G Dorian. Still fewer will understand it's a mode of F.

We don't want any arguments on the stage.

Just show them the 3 chords you're going to use.

 

[MikeS]

Most people will say it's in Gm. Some will realize it's actually G Dorian. Still fewer will understand it's a mode of F.

We don't want any arguments on the stage.

Just show them the 3 chords you're going to use.

That's probably the best idea. LOL It's 5 chords though.
Gm C D and the Gm during the bridge.

 

[jmin]

Most people will say it's in Gm. Some will realize it's actually G Dorian. Still fewer will understand it's a mode of F.

We don't want any arguments on the stage.

Just show them the 3 chords you're going to use.

I thought Mike was solo act (using backing tracks)?! I’d kinda like to hear him argue with himself about this!

 

[MikeS]

I thought Mike was solo act (using backing tracks)?! I’d kinda like to hear him argue with himself about this!

Well, I do go out to jams, so...
But that never stopped the voices in my head from arguing.