Solo 1 and Counting Rythm

ToneSeeker

indecisive player ... I suppose..
I'm memorizing Solo 1 which is a 12/8 time and having a dickens of a time with this.

I can certainly feel the rhythm; however, counting the beats out loud leaves me feeling like I have two left hands.
Anyone else feel this way when it comes to 12/8?

Or better yet, is anyone really counting this out loud? I just want to really know what measure I'm in as I'm plodding along through this. I can play the stuff without any trouble it's the counting and staying current on which measure I'm in that seems to be the problem.

Is this a case of repetition with the solo, the more I do it, the more familiar I'm going to become with it etc..etc..
 

bluesmadd

Funk the Blues
ToneSeeker, think triplets, i.e. 1 and a, ...... as your baseline counting, and adjust from there. (That would be 3 x 1/8 notes, 1/4 note obviously gets 2 base counts eg. '1 and') You've already done this in BGU. It gets tricky with 1/16 and the odd 1/32 note but get the base counting going first. I felt this way at first particularly with solo 4 in BGU. Just slow it down, perhaps even write it out on the tab. Hope this helps.
 

OG_Blues

Guitar Geezer
Good advice from bluesmadd.
I will add some food for thought.
Caveats:
I think it is hard to separate counting from other aspects of playing - everything has to work together and counting is just one aspect of playing.
This is what works for me, may not work for you as we all learn differently.
This is my opinion which may or may not be correct or agree with the opinions of others.
A lot of this depends on where an individual is in their learning process, and their achieved level of technique.

First, it's not clear exactly where you are experiencing trouble counting - is it on the licks themselves, or in general, everywhere?
In my opinion, as you progress through SBS and the solos become more and more difficult, you will NOT be counting many of the licks. I just don't think that it's possible to count many of them. I mean really, how do you count 35 notes in one measure at that speed. Forget it - its'not going to happen.
In fact, I rarely count licks at all except maybe when initially learning a lick as I "sight read" it for the first few times to try to hear what the lick sounds like and get the note sequence in my head.
I recommend initially learning the licks as played - with Griff's material, we are so fortunate to have both an example of the actual playing along with the notation and tab. Playing along with Griff (almost always slowed down) to get a solid grasp of the "feel" of the lick is essential to me.
What is the big benefit of this? Two things - 1) your playing will sound like much more "authentic" blues, because there are often nuances in the playing that are not reflected in the notation or tab that make it really sound like the blues. 2) Once you can play the licks in this manner, you don't NEED to count them.
So, once you have the licks well in hand, it's time to string them together, and HERE is where counting is MOST important IMO.
For it to sound right, you need to start and stop and restart playing at the right times. This means that I really only count the rests, and sometimes the duration of "held" notes (longer duration notes). This may take some time to work out, and it helps to carefully listen for specific "cues" in the backing track to key off of for places to start counting from. Identify your problem spots via a self recording along with the backing track. Then practice this, counting along with Griff's playing at first, then hum the licks or play them in your head along with the backing track and practice the counts, and then add actually playing the guitar yourself and counting.
This is a big mental task that most of us cannot conquer in one fell swoop (unless your name is W. A. Mozart). This process breaks it down into several sequential steps that build on one another after the previous step can be accomplished with little or no conscious thought, which allows the brain to more efficiently and successfully multi-task all of the things that go into playing.
Note: Using backing track cues is good only if you always play along with that backing track. Eventually, you should move beyond that as it all becomes more second nature, and rely on your own playing and counting - in a jam situation, you won't have the same backing track cues to work from. It's a process that takes time and complete familiarity with the piece.
So, in summary, my process is to learn to play the licks by "feel" and count the rests.
I hope maybe some of this makes sense and might help.
I am still, and will always be, working on mastering this process, this approach has helped me.
Tom
 

bluesmadd

Funk the Blues
Tom, nicely detailed. It's hard to exactly articulate how this process works and you've done a great job. For me, I count during the learning of a piece at a slow tempo until it's memorized in combo with the play along and just plain listening over and over to the music, and once I have the sound and the timing down, I can 'feel' the timing and don't need to count (mostly) any more, other than as you suggest, the rests, durations etc. that can easily get short changed if you're not paying attention and maybe some tricky beginnings to a measure.

To add to this, an experience I had last week was attending a trio woodwind group from our local philharmonic orchestra (i.e. professionals) and I was able to interact with the members. One question I asked was exactly this, 'Did you count in your head when you performed your piece?' and the member said emphatically 'yes'. Now this could be that she/they did not have it memorized (they did mention that they had a short time to practice for this, and had only run through the music several times before the performance) and of course they had the sheet music in front of them.

But surely a piece you've played enough and (almost) own it, I would say you are not counting (at all), you feel the rhythm and timing and know how it should/will sound.

My 2 cents.
 

ToneSeeker

indecisive player ... I suppose..
Good advice from bluesmadd.
Good advice from bluesmadd.
I will add some food for thought.
Caveats:
I think it is hard to separate counting from other aspects of playing - everything has to work together and counting is just one aspect of playing.
This is what works for me, may not work for you as we all learn differently.
This is my opinion which may or may not be correct or agree with the opinions of others.
A lot of this depends on where an individual is in their learning process, and their achieved level of technique.


My level of technique is not in the physicality of playing the music. Where I struggle the most is two fold.

#1. Being situationally aware of where I am at in the sequence of the entirety of a song.
#2. Seeing where I’m going in the SOLO.


I’ve always been this way, when I start to solo I get tunnel vision and don’t really have a good sense of purpose as a whole in the Solo, I can call and respond so to speak, but chaining things together etc… seems elusive. I can feel the changes when things go to the 4 and 5 that’s obvious but my situational awareness seems to be bad. The turn around just jumps up on me you know…



First, it's not clear exactly where you are experiencing trouble counting - is it on the licks themselves, or in general, everywhere?
In my opinion, as you progress through SBS and the solos become more and more difficult, you will NOT be counting many of the licks. I just don't think that it's possible to count many of them. I mean really, how do you count 35 notes in one measure at that speed. Forget it - its'not going to happen.


My issue really as it relates specifically to this is keeping count of the beginning of each measure… knowing where the 1 comes in…. I’m not really interested in counting out each lick, I can internalize the licks, but having the presence of knowing when I’m passing through Measure 4 and hitting the IV chord. That’s the type of counting I’m really driving at.

You know… in my head I want to be able to say… “Okay passing Measure 4 I’ve got 2 measure of the IV… then okay, back on the I for a couple of measure..”


Does that make sense?

In fact, I rarely count licks at all except maybe when initially learning a lick as I "sight read" it for the first few times to try to hear what the lick sounds like and get the note sequence in my head.
I recommend initially learning the licks as played - with Griff's material, we are so fortunate to have both an example of the actual playing along with the notation and tab. Playing along with Griff (almost always slowed down) to get a solid grasp of the "feel" of the lick is essential to me.
What is the big benefit of this? Two things - 1) your playing will sound like much more "authentic" blues, because there are often nuances in the playing that are not reflected in the notation or tab that make it really sound like the blues. 2) Once you can play the licks in this manner, you don't NEED to count them.
So, once you have the licks well in hand, it's time to string them together, and HERE is where counting is MOST important IMO.
For it to sound right, you need to start and stop and restart playing at the right times. This means that I really only count the rests, and sometimes the duration of "held" notes (longer duration notes). This may take some time to work out, and it helps to carefully listen for specific "cues" in the backing track to key off of for places to start counting from. Identify your problem spots via a self recording along with the backing track. Then practice this, counting along with Griff's playing at first, then hum the licks or play them in your head along with the backing track and practice the counts, and then add actually playing the guitar yourself and counting.
This is a big mental task that most of us cannot conquer in one fell swoop (unless your name is W. A. Mozart). This process breaks it down into several sequential steps that build on one another after the previous step can be accomplished with little or no conscious thought, which allows the brain to more efficiently and successfully multi-taskall of the things that go into playing.
Note: Using backing track cues is good only if you always play along with that backing track. Eventually, you should move beyond that as it all becomes more second nature, and rely on your own playing and counting - in a jam situation, you won't have the same backing track cues to work from. It's a process that takes time and complete familiarity with the piece.
So, in summary, my process is to learn to play the licks by "feel" and count the rests.
I hope maybe some of this makes sense and might help.
I am still, and will always be, working on mastering this process, this approach has helped me.
Tom


This helped me out, understanding a few things and boosting my confidence knowing that I’m in the process and it’s just going to take a while.
 

ToneSeeker

indecisive player ... I suppose..
To add to this, an experience I had last week was attending a trio woodwind group from our local philharmonic orchestra (i.e. professionals) and I was able to interact with the members. One question I asked was exactly this, 'Did you count in your head when you performed your piece?' and the member said emphatically 'yes'. Now this could be that she/they did not have it memorized (they did mention that they had a short time to practice for this, and had only run through the music several times before the performance) and of course they had the sheet music in front of them.

My 2 cents.

I'm a somewhat trained classical guitarist and this is the case playing classical and reading music for me in this scenario as well... Most classical music is played by wrote not by ear.
 
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