setting levels, amplitude/gain question

Elwood

Blues
I guess I am still a bit confused at this.
I thought that I got it, that boosting the signal going into the plug in will affect the plug in, sure.
But if I understand it (big if) you are saying that after I have all the tracks mixed up close to what I want...and then if I use Ozone on the master fader, this (maybe only if the overall signal is boosted? - but Ozone almost always boosts my stuff) that that addition of Ozone (or anything that will boost the signal) will affect the "pre-fader" performance of the plug-ins?.
If that is the case I guess that even cutting the signal level at the master could "cool off" something like an OD plug in that was pre-fader?
If so the whole thing is way more touchy than I suspected. I guess yesterday I had envisioned a sort of a barrier, effects wise between pre and post fader, sounds like that is not entirely true.
I'm still sure this is how I have all of a sudden went from a pleasant sounding track to garbage and sat there clueless.
I hope that all made sense.
 

PapaRaptor

Father Vyvian O'Blivion
Staff member
I thought that I got it, that boosting the signal going into the plug in will affect the plug in, sure.
Yes. Any changes in the overall level of a track that is ahead of the plug-in will affect the performance of the plug-in.
but Ozone almost always boosts my stuff) that that addition of Ozone (or anything that will boost the signal) will affect the "pre-fader" performance of the plug-ins?.
That's kind of a maybe. Your output bus (aka Main Out, Master Volume, etc.) doesn't work any differently than any other channel strip. The channel strip works in a linear fashion Input - INSERTS - Fader - SEND/POST. I say maybe, because the effect Ozone has on pre-fader is determined by its order in the INSERTS stack. Just like a pedal board, a pedal will not affect the actual operation of any pedal that comes before it in the signal chain. What you hear after Ozone may be different, but it isn't changing any of the individual channel settings or plug-ins. The only time Ozone will affect another plug-in is if it is not the last thing in the signal chain. INSERT sections use a top-down method, so if you have multiple plug-ins in a channel's send, the first plug-in will operate on the signal and then pass it's results to the next plug-in and so on until it reaches the end of the chain. It then goes to the fader.

Specific to Ozone... It is used primarily as a mastering tool and is usually placed in the INSERTS of the output bus. If you are using the Master Assistant automatic settings, the Ozone software assumes you are mastering and fills all the cracks using compression and EQ algorithms to pack as much sound into an audio signal as possible. When placed in the INSERTS of the output bus it gets the sum of all of the tracks/channel strips ahead of it.

If you choose to put Ozone into an individual channel strip, you should not use the Master Assistant because the very design of the algorithm attempts to fill as much of the frequency range and loudness spectrum. This can seriously screw up the overall sound of an instrument. Having said that, the equalizer module in Ozone is exactly what you would expect. The Maximizer module is a highly configurable compressor and the imager uses phasing shifts to make a signal appear wider or more narrow on a sonic stage.

cutting the signal level at the master could "cool off" something like an OD plug in that was pre-fader?
No. Once a plug-in operates on a signal, the results of that plug-in will go through the entire signal chain. You may use another plug-in to further alter the sound or gain or level, but nothing further down the signal chain will undo anything that comes ahead of it.

If so the whole thing is way more touchy than I suspected.
Probably not. Think of each step of the signal chain as a building block. For the most part, plug-ins are autonomous. Their operation may be sophisticated, but the implementation is fairly straightforward and simple.

We haven't even begun to talk about SENDS, which offers a lot more flexibility in sound manipulation, but still operates in a pretty straightforward manner.
 
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CaptainMoto

Blues Voyager
I guess I am still a bit confused at this.
I thought that I got it, that boosting the signal going into the plug in will affect the plug in, sure.
But if I understand it (big if) you are saying that after I have all the tracks mixed up close to what I want...and then if I use Ozone on the master fader, this (maybe only if the overall signal is boosted? - but Ozone almost always boosts my stuff) that that addition of Ozone (or anything that will boost the signal) will affect the "pre-fader" performance of the plug-ins?.
If that is the case I guess that even cutting the signal level at the master could "cool off" something like an OD plug in that was pre-fader?
If so the whole thing is way more touchy than I suspected. I guess yesterday I had envisioned a sort of a barrier, effects wise between pre and post fader, sounds like that is not entirely true.
I'm still sure this is how I have all of a sudden went from a pleasant sounding track to garbage and sat there clueless.
I hope that all made sense.
I'd say look at it this way:
Anything after the faders is raising volume, it will not effect how the plug ins react but.....................
There is volume and then there is loudnesso_O

Loudness is the perceived sound level so, you may perceive a sound to be louder even if the volume has not changed.
Example: If your guitar volume is set where you like it and you engage an OD with equal volume output, the resulting sound may be perceived as louder. Distortion can often be perceived as a volume boost when in fact it could be exactly the same.

As this relates to DAW work:
If you apply compression to the main or master output you're boosting some of the low volume parts in the song , consequently the low volume parts will be louder and therefore any effect you have on that track could be perceived as louder or exaggerating the effect.

Here's what I do:
I always put an SSL bus compressor on my main/master output.
I do this at the beginning of the mix process.
The result is, I'm listening through the compressor as I mix.
Any effect it may have on the tracks is always present..........no surprises at the end.
 

Elwood

Blues
Whew, thanks! better understanding!
I have had remarkably positive results using busses. for some reason it seems to make sense, especially once I clued in to controlling the level of what I sent to each bus. That thing about gluing some tracks tougher, like with reverb, and mixing in the reverb with the non- reverb signal, just seems to work. One thing that helped me was pondering the setup for some of the pre-settings (in Logic Pro), trying to see how they built that sound, I get some and miss some I'm sure.
 

PapaRaptor

Father Vyvian O'Blivion
Staff member
I have had remarkably positive results using busses. for some reason it seems to make sense, especially once I clued in to controlling the level of what I sent to each bus.
Therein lies a "hidden" secret. Busses are your friend.
 

PapaRaptor

Father Vyvian O'Blivion
Staff member
Here's what I do:
I always put an SSL bus compressor on my main/master output.
I do this at the beginning of the mix process.
The result is, I'm listening through the compressor as I mix.
Any effect it may have on the tracks is always present..........no surprises at the end.
I'm just the opposite. I leave the outs pristine and work towards making the best "live mix." When I'm happy with the mix, then I'll enable Ozone and see if I like the tweaks it makes to the final. If so, I'm done. If not, I'll disable it again and confirm that I really like the mix. If I don't use Ozone, I'll run a mix and verify that I'm not clipping. If I get a clip, I'll toss a limiter on and back it to -0.1db and let it rip.

I don't mind compressing instruments and vocals within reason, but I like to stay away from compressing the overall signal.

Your method is certainly just as valid as mine and I probably got to the minimal compression habit as a result of being too heavy handed with compression in some of my early recordings.
 

BraylonJennings

It's all blues
I'm just the opposite. I leave the outs pristine and work towards making the best "live mix." When I'm happy with the mix, then I'll enable Ozone and see if I like the tweaks it makes to the final. If so, I'm done. If not, I'll disable it again and confirm that I really like the mix. If I don't use Ozone, I'll run a mix and verify that I'm not clipping. If I get a clip, I'll toss a limiter on and back it to -0.1db and let it rip.

I don't mind compressing instruments and vocals within reason, but I like to stay away from compressing the overall signal.

Your method is certainly just as valid as mine and I probably got to the minimal compression habit as a result of being too heavy handed with compression in some of my early recordings.
I'm with PR, nothing on the output bus excepting metering type plug ins. I'm using StudioOne so all my mix bus fx are done on the mastering (project) page. Usually I try for best mix using just volume and panning. From there I start routing to busses, using high pass, eq/comp and so on. Not an ironclad rule, for projects that take longer, I'll frequently mix and master along the way.
 

CaptainMoto

Blues Voyager
@PapaRaptor

You're breaking the rules!
:ROFLMAO:

Everyone needs to find a system that works for them.

For a while I was doing what you describe but, recently I have not used Ozone to finish my tracks.
I wasn't always happy with the results and I didn't understand what it was doing.
I'm far from satisfied with my own mixes so, I keep tweaking my process.

I've got some outboard gear I use and I might be adding one or two more pieces to help me finish my mixes.
Currently I use a two channel outboard preamp, two compressors and a summing mixer.
I've been researching a few pieces of gear that I want to apply to the mix bus.

If I pull the trigger on that stuff I'll be using fewer plug ins ( maybe none) on the back end.
 
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CaptainMoto

Blues Voyager
I'm with PR, nothing on the output bus excepting metering type plug ins. I'm using StudioOne so all my mix bus fx are done on the mastering (project) page. Usually I try for best mix using just volume and panning. From there I start routing to busses, using high pass, eq/comp and so on. Not an ironclad rule, for projects that take longer, I'll frequently mix and master along the way.
Love that Project Page!
It's a must have for releasing albums.
 

Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
I see that terminology is wonky too...

General "accepted" terms are things like:

* input gain or trim for the initial gain that is hit from the track. Literally, this is the first thing that a recorded track, or an input signal sees. When recording, you want an input gain that allows for plenty of headroom before distortion, while giving enough signal to negate any associated noise floor.

* From there, the signal will travel through inserts, which in the old school world was literally plugs and cables (send and return) but nowadays comes in the form of plugins. Those terms are pretty interchangeable, but if you say inserts, people will know you're old :)

The difference between inserts and sends is the fact that ALL of the signal goes through an insert, whereas with sends a copy is sent somewhere.

* From there you'll have sends, which can be configured to be pre-fader or post-fader. These send a copy of the signal to a destination - a reverb, a compressor, a bus, it can be several different things but effects are most common. For effects, you tend to want this pre-fader so that increasing the volume with the fader does not increase the "wetness" of the effect. But you may prefer to have them run in tandem, in which case run your send post-fader. There's no hard and fast rule here.

If your sends are pre-fader, then the fader is next in the line and is the final output volume for the channel. Your signal will go somewhere from here - a bus or master bus, but it's all done in the channel. Even if your sends are post-fader, there's nothing else the channel does from this point.

Just remember

Material (track or live input) -> input gain -> plugins/inserts -> sends -> faders (volume)

If you can picture how the sound flows, it's much easier to figure things out.
 
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