SBS for learning the boxes?

MuddyFox

Blues Newbie
Thanks for the insight, Mike!

That's kinda what I was thinking.... learn notes everywhere around the important bit, both to the left and right. I just might go try it and see what happens.
 

OG_Blues

Guitar Geezer
Muddy,
One thing that might help is to learn some licks that you already know how to play well in box 1, in some of the other boxes. This will help you learn where the intervals are and to find the chord tones to target in the other boxes. I'm still working on this. Some licks do not finger well or conveniently in all boxes, and some boxes are better suited to some kind of licks that you may not be playing in box 1, so the other boxes can help to expand your vocabulary. For instance, certain hammer ons and pull offs or slides work better in box 'x' than in box 'y', just because of where the notes fall. Experimentation and experience are your best teacher for this. You have probably already figured this out.
Tedious as it is, I have found that transcribing solos or leads from recordings that I like is a great teacher for expanding not only vocabulary, but different parts of the neck. For some reason, I find that I retain those licks better and am more able to actually incorporate them into my playing better than just learning some random bunch of licks from a book.
The more different ways can you can look at and do the same thing, the better off you are.
The more I work through the material in SBS, the less and less I think in terms of the boxes though.
I also think Mike's recommendations are spot on, but I may put box 5 ahead of box 4 for the reasons you bring up.
If nothing else, it helps to know that other people go through the same struggles :)
Tom
 

leftymike01

Blues Newbie
I Have the Slow Blues supplement course, i was thinking of buying the New Major Minor Course to see if that would help
have a better understand of the SBS Course,Has Anyone try
out Griffs new Course,Does Branch of this Course?
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
I guess I’ll chime in with my 2 cents.

When I first learned scales, I started with the major scale patterns. I wanted to be able to go up or down the neck from a given root on the 6th string. (This is what Griff considers right and left facing). Then the 5th, 4th, etc.

Then I figured out the minor patterns and realized they were the same as the major, but starting from a different note. (Same is true of all the modes).

Then I realized that each scale pattern is associated with a chord shape(or vice versa). So I think of a scale pattern with a chord shape, not a box.

Pentatonic scales just have some notes left out.

For example: A Major at the 5th fret, 6th string (5-7,4-5-7, 4-6-7, etc.) is associated with an A Major barre chord at the 5th fret. A Minor at the 5th fret, 6th string (5-7-8, 5-7-8, 5-7,etc.) with an A minor barre chord.  The barre chords correspond to open E Major and minor, so I think of the A Maj and A min scale shapes as E shapes.

For A Major Pentatonic you just remove the 4 and 7 from major the scale and I think of this as the E Major shape, not a box 2.

Likewise, for A minor pentatonic the notes outline the A min barre chord and I think of it as the Em shape, not box 1.

The point is, I associate the scale with an open chord shape not a box with a number.

It still works out the same, but I think seeing the relationship to a chord has more meaning.

Again, look at A minor pentatonic Box 1. The roots on the 6th, 4th and 1st string fit the shape of the Am barre chord and I think of it as the Em shape at the 5th fret.

A Major box 2 (which some would call Major box 1, adding to the confusion) still has the same roots and fit the shape of the A Major barre chord, i.e. the open E Major shape.

Summary: A min box 1=Em chord shape; A Maj box 2=E Maj chord shape.

It follows that each box has two chord shapes within it. Box 1 from a minor perspective has the Em chord shape, but from the Major perspective it has an open G chord shape.

Another example: Box 3 from a minor perspective the roots form an open C(7) chord shape. From a major perspective, an open D shape.

Summary 2: Parallel boxes come from the same open chord shape (Maj, min or 7th),
while each “box” contains two relative chord shapes (Maj, min or 7th)

Maybe this is more confusing to some, but the idea is to relate a scale to a corresponding chord rather than a box.  It just turns out that you can draw a line around the notes of the scale and the chord and put them in a “box”. If you learn the box first, then if you want to play outside the box, you eventually have to learn to associate them to chords anyway. So why not start from there?

Bottom Line: Not only are scales played to the left or right of a given root note, there is also a corresponding chord shape to the left or right built from those notes (+ or -).
 

D.Learmonth

Blues Newbie
The four patterns are, relative to the chosen root note:
left facing major pentatonic
left facing minor pentatonic
right facing major pentatonic
right facing minor pentatonic

All with the blue note added, so call them all the blues scale instead if you wish.

These, along with knowing what the notes on the neck are, are all you need to know. So, is learning this, instead of 5 boxes, better or easier? I don't know for sure, but I think so. Knowing both these patterns and the boxes results in a complementary set of knowledge that are really just different versions of the exact same thing. Being able to see it both ways is advantageous I think.
In my mind, I wonder if learning one vs the other first has any advantage. I suspect there is little research or evidence to prove it one way or the other.
I'd venture to say that 99% or more learn the boxes first, but Griff says that if you also learn the 4 patterns, you are ahead of 95% of all guitarists.
Learning the boxes is traditional - possibly because few budding guitarists know the the notes on the neck, so the box pattern approach is expeditious, and effective.
I'm not convinced that makes it the best approach.
I'd love to hear Griff's thoughts, and what his experience with his students is on this.
Tom
The four patterns change with the string the root note is on. There are five patterns that the four patterns come from. These are the five boxes. Learn them!!
 

Thatman

Playin' for the fun of it.
Well I think that if you know Box 1 then you know all 5 boxes already. Take Box 1, it starts on the Root 'A' so go to any 'A' and play Box 1 from that root and hey you've got another Box, so dependent upon which 'A' you choose that determines the actual Box no. Don't forget to do the extra Fret move occur between the 'G' & 'B' string.
 

D.Learmonth

Blues Newbie
It's the B string being tuned down a 1/2 tone that complicates matters. Better for a beginer to learn the boxes, then they can come at the more complicated concepts from a solid base.
 

OG_Blues

Guitar Geezer
............ Better for a beginer to learn the boxes, then they can come at the more complicated concepts from a solid base.
I simultaneously agree and disagree with this! :)
I don't think there is much research or experience to show if one approach is "better" than the other.
The fact is that most budding guitar players do not learn much music theory, and do not learn the notes and how to read music first.
With that lack of knowledge, they rely on learning patterns that can lead to being able to play music. This can be an effective method, as has been proven over time. With guitarists, the theory etc seems to usually be an afterthought when the student becomes more serious about the instrument.
However, with virtually any other common instrument, some theory, note recognition, and reading standard music notation are the first things studied and learned, so those people are working from a stronger base on which to build right off the bat.
Using the 4 major and minor patterns in lieu of, or in concert with, the 5 boxes does in fact require more knowledge than using the boxes alone. You need to know where the root notes are on the neck for starters. That is something that everyone should know as a minimum requirement anyway, so building off of that is not that big of a stretch for the motivated student.
Once again I will point you to what Griff says on page 18 of SBS and I quote
"Our goal is to one day have it so that you really don't think in terms of boxes anymore."
I guess it depends to what extent you embrace this advice.
The question in my mind is that if this is the goal, then how important is it to learn the boxes in the first place?
Useful? Yes. Necessary? Maybe - maybe not. Again as Griff says, the boxes are a convenient method for communication - because they are something that so many people do learn (first), and are therefore a useful common denominator.
Food for thought :)
Tom
 

D.Learmonth

Blues Newbie
Many times in my education (musical and otherwise) I have been taught something only to then be told that I will never use it or that there is a better way. That does not mean that I should never have learnt it or that I should forget it as it gives me a deeper understanding of the whole.
 

Thatman

Playin' for the fun of it.
1. Learning the minor pentatonic boxes is important.
2. Remembering which fingers land on the roots when playing minor is important.
3. Being able to identify the roots on the neck is important.
4. Playing all the minor boxes starting from root notes is important.
5. Then, start again for major by using box two from the box one root and using your index finger, and remember all the fingers used that land on the roots. Then repeat points 1-4, et viola.
And if this doesn't make sense then it may be that I'll have to re-read my Major Minor Blues Solos course.
 

BoogieMan

Blues Junior
The four patterns are, relative to the chosen root note:
left facing major pentatonic
left facing minor pentatonic
right facing major pentatonic
right facing minor pentatonic

All with the blue note added, so call them all the blues scale instead if you wish.
This is a little misleading since the patterns change depending on which root note you are working. Eventually you end up with 10 different "patterns" which correspond to the boxes anyway. I think the distinction between boxes and patterns is moot.
 

OG_Blues

Guitar Geezer
BoogieMan,
I think we are just viewing things a little differently.
I think whether the differences are moot or not depends on what your preferred approach to the music is.
The variations in the 4 basic patterns that you mention are the same variation that occurs in the box patterns when the B string is involved, and just like with the boxes, after a while, that bump in the road becomes natural. The 4 patterns are just a subset of the boxes that are based on the roots. The boxes are not "root based", they are "position based", and each then naturally results in a different approach to playing.
Tom
 

Thatman

Playin' for the fun of it.
Try this,
Play the bottom two strings of the Am Blues scale i.e. 6th & 5th string, starting with index finger on the root (Box 1).
Look at this pattern and the notes relative to the root.

Now go to any 'A' root note on the neck and play that first two string pattern, which is mirroring Box 1, then stop and think about it. You are actually playing in a different part of the neck but you are playing Box 1, whichever root you select. From the selected start root if you carry on playing the box 1 pattern you are finishing off the particular Box you would expect to play at that location. (don't forget about the B string step).
 

Thatman

Playin' for the fun of it.
Cheers Tim, I spotted this in one of Tom's earlier posts and have now got it printed out, in colour, for ready reference. It supports my work with the Major Minor Blues Solo course.
 

BoogieMan

Blues Junior
The variations in the 4 basic patterns that you mention are the same variation that occurs in the box patterns when the B string is involved, and just like with the boxes, after a while, that bump in the road becomes natural. The 4 patterns are just a subset of the boxes that are based on the roots. The boxes are not "root based", they are "position based", and each then naturally results in a different approach to playing.
Tom
Tom I wasn't referring to the B string offset. I just don't see a distinction between boxes and patterns. The patterns are the same as boxes and change depending on the root. For example, if you are working with the 6th string root of G, the right facing major pentatonic pattern = box 2, the right facing minor pentatonic pattern = box 1, etc. If you are working with the 2nd string root, the "patterns" change. The right facing major pentatonic pattern = box 4, right facing minor pentatonic pattern = box 3, etc. Maybe it would help me understand if you clarified your comment about the patterns being a subset of the boxes.
 

OG_Blues

Guitar Geezer
BoogieMan,
Too bad we can't actually sit together and discuss this with guitars (and maybe a refreshment) in hand :)
We are not disagreeing with one another, but may have somewhat different perspectives.
Unfortunately, I don't have the time at the moment to get into a long explanation of my perspective, but possibly I can point you to where it comes from.
I assume that you actually have the SBS course and manual available.
The most common perspective of the box pattern approach, is that at any position on the neck, that box will contain ~12 notes not including the blue notes. For that specific position on the neck, the box will contain 2 or 3 root notes for the current key you are playing in, and those roots will fall on 2 or three different strings.
By contrast, when your perspective is the "4 pattern major minor" pattern, and you relate it to a box position, a given box has about 24 different possible root notes (without moving your starting hand position). Knowing what root you want to start from, and whether you want a major or minor, or composite sound, you pick from one of the 4 patterns, or mix them together. It's just a different approach.
If you look at the 4 patterns, you will see that those patterns are contained within the different boxes that you already know.
Here's the key - look at the chart that Griff provides on page 36 of the manual. This relates the root note string to the 4 patterns to the box that contains that pattern.
It may take some study to see these relationships clearly - it did for me. You may need to draw them out for yourself. But that chart is the key to it all.
I think it's not so much a distinction (as you mentioned) as it is a relationship and perspective. The 4 pattern perspective is broader in scope and more flexible in application in my opinion, and that is its potential benefit. It does require that one be able to change your perspective quickly with relationship to the underlying chord or implied root in the music, and that is definitely a challenge that takes time to master. But then you can get whatever "flavor" of sound that you want at a single position on the neck, and from any string as a starting point.
I hope this helps a little bit. I guess it turned out to be pretty long anyway.
Tom
 

ToneSeeker

indecisive player ... I suppose..
So here is my .02 on some of this information here... if you already know Box 1 and Box 2 I would recommend training your ear first. Griff recommends this in SBS and it is serving me well. As a guy who has spent a lot of time as a classical musician, learning notes is extremely important; however its not the end game the end game is music. Music is heard.

Training your ear trumps Training how to read music every day. Not that learning to write what you play or read what someone else is playing isn't important.

If you know Box 1 and you know Box 2 then take Griff's advice in SBS and work on integrating the Major/Minor sounds by combining them. He advocates playing a measure (without a metronome) of the Minor Box, then a Measure of the Major Box, then a Measure of the Minor box... this serves two-Fold.
It teaches your ear to hear the differences
It teaches you the patterns deeply.

Start with
Minor Box 1 ( Right Facing Low E String root, Left Facing 4th String Root, Right Facing High E-String Root)
Major Box 2 ( Right Facing Low E String root, Left Facing 4th String Root, Right Facing High E-String Root)

Alternate every measure ascending and descending the scale ( in Swing 8ths to your comfortable speed).

I also add the Dominant 7 Scale to boot, to keep things fresh.

Refer to the attached Graphic for something simple to use.

Hope this makes sense and is received well.

Enjoy the journey.
 

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