SBS for learning the boxes?

MuddyFox

Blues Newbie
Alrite folks, I need some words of wisdom here...

Bottom line - I don't know my boxes. I know box one and the two house patterns. But I'd like to learn the boxes. Not necessarily because I "need" to know them, just as a vessel to give me some practice focus and hopefully more fretboard familiarity.

I've been down the BGU road down to solo #3 and that hasn't helped my box knowledge any. Rote memorization also doesn't work and I can't "see the dots" to save my life. That's why I figured that learning the boxes in this whole left/right minor/major framework might just be the way to learn them and have them stick at the same time, because they would be learned within a concept and with a defined goal in mind.

Whaddyaallsay?
 

OG_Blues

Guitar Geezer
Well, Muddy - SBS is actually all about forgetting about, and moving beyond the boxes!!!! But it does leverage that knowledge off of a prior knowledge of the boxes, or assumes that you already know the boxes.
The concept of learning the left and right facing patterns for major and minor, combined with knowing where the root notes are on the neck, basically make the boxes kind of obsolete.
I find that when I analyze a new lick now, it is not from the context or reference point of which box it is in, but rather, which root note and which of the 4 patterns it comes from.
Really, it is less to memorize or learn.
The boxes are a time proven method of learning guitar, and blues in particular, but I have to believe that if someone just started with the 4 patterns and knew where the notes are on the neck, they might progress even faster.
Not sure if this answers your question or just confuses you more :)
Tom
 

MuddyFox

Blues Newbie
Hey, thanks for that!

Like I said, I absolutely don't need the boxes per se. If one dispenses with them at some point anyways, there's not much point in cementing them in my brain, is there?  ;)

I'm not a greenhorn and I know they are there and what they are, I'm just looking for a well-marked path forward instead of just fumbling through the dense fog like I'm doing now (with both pentatonics and diatonics). Referencing everything to the root instead of a particular box seems perfectly reasonable to me and that's kinda what I'm doing with my diatonics, eventhough I know seven fingerings of the major scale.
I know what you're saying but I'm not specifically familiar with the four patterns you mention. Any pointers in that direction? I'm kinda fluent with my Cs and Gs on the fretboard but I haven't pursued that very seriously. I will eventually and this may just be the time for it.

I'm thinking of doing the SBS but not focus so much on the actual boxes as on the roots and how they relate to the notes to the left and to the right (essentially, boxes) and how they all play together. Am I making any sense here?
 

JN99

Hang Fire
Well, Muddy - SBS is actually all about forgetting about, and moving beyond the boxes!!!! But it does leverage that knowledge off of a prior knowledge of the boxes, or assumes that you already know the boxes.
The concept of learning the left and right facing patterns for major and minor, combined with knowing where the root notes are on the neck, basically make the boxes kind of obsolete.
I find that when I analyze a new lick now, it is not from the context or reference point of which box it is in, but rather, which root note and which of the 4 patterns it comes from.
Really, it is less to memorize or learn.
The boxes are a time proven method of learning guitar, and blues in particular, but I have to believe that if someone just started with the 4 patterns and knew where the notes are on the neck, they might progress even faster.
Not sure if this answers your question or just confuses you more :)
Tom

4 patterns?  Please expand on this.  What 4 patterns?  I'm thinking you mean major pent, minor pent, major blues, and minor blues from the root.  One could argue there are only two patterns, major an minor, and subsets of them e.g. blues, pentatonic.

I share the belief that starting from that viewpoint is a whole lot more productive than the 5 pentatonic boxes.  I had a bit of a revelation myself last year in looking at things that way and wishing I'd started there and NOT with the pentatonic "boxes".
 

Terry B

Humble student of the blues
It's been a few months since I've done anything with this course, but my recollection is the first half was cementing the five boxes, then moving onto using left and right facing options of the five boxes, in minor or major, for any given root note.

This is in some manner moving beyond the five boxes, but my understanding is you need a good understanding of the five boxes first.  [smiley=undecided.gif]

On the other hand, as Griff has told us somewhere, many a guitarist has made a career out of nothing more than boxes one and two. [smiley=smiley.gif]
 

jmin

Student Of The Blues
I'm right with you on box knowledge, Muddy. Also just starting on solo 4 in BGU. Don't really "know" boxes 3,4,& 5. I'm waiting until the end of BGU to see where I'm at with the boxes and then go from there. It all seems to come down to fully understanding the fretboard and knowing where/how/why the solos fit! Simple!
 

OG_Blues

Guitar Geezer
The four patterns are, relative to the chosen root note:
left facing major pentatonic
left facing minor pentatonic
right facing major pentatonic
right facing minor pentatonic

All with the blue note added, so call them all the blues scale instead if you wish.

These, along with knowing what the notes on the neck are, are all you need to know. So, is learning this, instead of 5 boxes, better or easier? I don't know for sure, but I think so. Knowing both these patterns and the boxes results in a complementary set of knowledge that are really just different versions of the exact same thing. Being able to see it both ways is advantageous I think.
In my mind, I wonder if learning one vs the other first has any advantage.  I suspect there is little research or evidence to prove it one way or the other.
I'd venture to say that 99% or more learn the boxes first, but Griff says that if you also learn the 4 patterns, you are ahead of 95% of all guitarists.
Learning the boxes is traditional - possibly because few budding guitarists know the the notes on the neck, so the box pattern approach is expeditious, and effective.
I'm not convinced that makes it the best approach.
I'd love to hear Griff's thoughts, and what his experience with his students is on this.
Tom
 

Terry B

Humble student of the blues
But for the root note on each string there is a different box associated with each of the four patterns. And all the boxes change for each string root, except the first and sixth string roots which are of course the same.

For instance the chart on page 36 of the manual identifies the minor left facing option as box 5, minor right facings option box 1, major left facing option box 1 and major right box 2, for the first and sixth string root. Which isn't too bad because we're kinda programmed to use the sixth string root. But if you want to work around a fifth string root there are four different boxes, and different again for second, third and fourth string roots. [smiley=huh.gif]

I know it's gonna take a while before I get that all straight in my head, especially to the point where I can remember it all on the fly. [smiley=embarassed.gif]
 

OG_Blues

Guitar Geezer
But for the root note on each string there is a different box associated with each of the four patterns. And all the boxes change for each string root, except the first and sixth string roots which are of course the same.

For instance the chart on page 36 of the manual identifies the minor left facing option as box 5, minor right facings option box 1, major left facing option box 1 and major right box 2, for the first and sixth string root. Which isn't too bad because we're kinda programmed to use the sixth string root. But if you want to work around a fifth string root there are four different boxes, and different again for second, third and fourth string roots. [smiley=huh.gif]

I know it's gonna take a while before I get that all straight in my head, especially to the point where I can remember it all on the fly. [smiley=embarassed.gif]
Yes, I agree it can be confusing, if not downright overwhelming.
Here's my take on it.
The cross reference chart, and the discussion about relating the 4 patterns to the boxes is only important IF your point of reference is prior knowledge of the boxes.
If you don't know the boxes, it's irrelevant - you don't NEED to know them.
I think it's a matter of perspective, or how you want to look at the instrument.
Think of it from this perspective - in a real world jam, someone calls out a key, the drummer picks up the beat, and you are expected to play something a few moments later.
What is your mental process in those few moments?
If your primary knowledge base is the boxes, you pick a box that you feel is good for that key - most people will pick box 1 - it's most familiar and has the root note on both E strings, so you can easily start high or low, or even in the middle since box 1 contains 3 root notes - but you may be at a position on the neck that is not ideal. If you pick a different box, you need to know where the root is in that box.
Alternatively, if your primary knowledge base or orientation is roots and the 4 patterns, you can almost instantly choose from many different places all over the neck to start from.
Which is better?
Is one better?
Is knowing both better? More options to process and choose from.
Either way, you have to make some quick decisions. :)
I am not personally at the point of being able to instantly and always make the right decision using either method, but I can see pretty obvious advantages to the 4 pattern / root note approach, given the time to master that approach.
Food for thought.
For well seasoned musicians, this probably seems like a silly and simple discussion because the right answers are immediately known or obvious to them. For we mere mortals - Dream on.
Tom
 

Terry B

Humble student of the blues
But for the root note on each string there is a different box associated with each of the four patterns. And all the boxes change for each string root, except the first and sixth string roots which are of course the same.

For instance the chart on page 36 of the manual identifies the minor left facing option as box 5, minor right facings option box 1, major left facing option box 1 and major right box 2, for the first and sixth string root. Which isn't too bad because we're kinda programmed to use the sixth string root. But if you want to work around a fifth string root there are four different boxes, and different again for second, third and fourth string roots. [smiley=huh.gif]

I know it's gonna take a while before I get that all straight in my head, especially to the point where I can remember it all on the fly. [smiley=embarassed.gif]
Yes, I agree it can be confusing, if not downright overwhelming.
Here's my take on it.
The cross reference chart, and the discussion about relating the 4 patterns to the boxes is only important IF your point of reference is prior knowledge of the boxes.
If you don't know the boxes, it's irrelevant - you don't NEED to know them.
I think it's a matter of perspective, or how you want to look at the instrument.
Think of it from this perspective - in a real world jam, someone calls out a key, the drummer picks up the beat, and you are expected to play something a few moments later.
What is your mental process in those few moments?
If your primary knowledge base is the boxes, you pick a box that you feel is good for that key - most people will pick box 1 - it's most familiar and has the root note on both E strings, so you can easily start high or low, or even in the middle since box 1 contains 3 root notes - but you may be at a position on the neck that is not ideal. If you pick a different box, you need to know where the root is in that box.
Alternatively, if your primary knowledge base or orientation is roots and the 4 patterns, you can almost instantly choose from many different places all over the neck to start from.
Which is better?
Is one better?
Is knowing both better? More options to process and choose from.
Either way, you have to make some quick decisions. :)
I am not personally at the point of being able to instantly and always make the right decision using either method, but I can see pretty obvious advantages to the 4 pattern / root note approach, given the time to master that approach.
Food for thought.
For well seasoned musicians, this probably seems like a silly and simple discussion because the right answers are immediately known or obvious to them. For we mere mortals - Dream on.
Tom

Yep, which reminds me; it's soon time to take another run at SBS.
 

MuddyFox

Blues Newbie
The four patterns are, relative to the chosen root note:
left facing major pentatonic
left facing minor pentatonic
right facing major pentatonic
right facing minor pentatonic

All with the blue note added, so call them all the blues scale instead if you wish.

These, along with knowing what the notes on the neck are, are all you need to know.

I haven't been down the sbs road yet so I might be understanding this wrong but skimmming through the manual, in the table on page 38 it lists all five boxes as being left/right/min/maj at some point so I'm guessing one must know them all eventually? Only not refer to them as interconnected boxes, but seeing them in their relationship to the root note and min/maj function?
 

OG_Blues

Guitar Geezer
MuddyFox,
If you read my long response #9 to Terry above, I touch on your question about knowing it "all", i.e. 4 patterns and the boxes.
Short answer is, in an ideal world, "yes, but not totally essential".
One big benefit of knowing the boxes is that most OTHER people use this as their frame of reference and their method for communicating. Read the text at the top of page 18.
I do not claim to be expert at this topic, but it is one I have pondered a lot lately.
Tom
 

Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
I think there is something a little deeper at play here... this really isn't a question of learning boxes or not - or how to best learn boxes.

If you've got the house patterns and box 1, you're already playing a lot of music. So what I can assume is that you now feel stifled and are ready to explore more of the fretboard, is that correct?

Rather than trying to learn all 5 boxes at once, why not start with box 3, which builds really nicely off the house pattern.

Let's say you're playing a blues in G using the major house pattern (index finger on the 8th fret G on the 2nd string...)

When the IV chord comes along, if your first finger stays on that G and you imagine box 3 around it (meaning the other note on that string would be the 11th fret) you have G minor blues right there.

You can explore that sound for a few weeks until you feel like you've really got it down, and then maybe try box 4 built around that same G when the I chord returns for more major sound instead of the house pattern.

Just those 2 "challenges" for yourself will handle you learning the 2 boxes, and make music along the way - and it's a lot more fun than just trying to memorize the boxes thinking you should.

Now if I'm way off base on the "why" here... please let me know because this will make little sense (not the first time :)
 

MuddyFox

Blues Newbie
MuddyFox,
If you read my long response #9 to Terry above, I touch on your question about knowing it "all", i.e. 4 patterns and the boxes.
Short answer is, in an ideal world, "yes, but not totally essential".
One big benefit of knowing the boxes is that most OTHER people use this as their frame of reference and their method for communicating. Read the text at the top of page 18.
I do not claim to be expert at this topic, but it is one I have pondered a lot lately.
Tom

Yeah, I'm not entirely concerned about "other people" right now, I struggle with this guitar thing plenty enough without having that other monkey on my back as well.  ;D I need to get myself straightened out first and you bunch will understand either way.

I did read your musings, in fact several times over, and it is indeed food for thought. What I was saying is that from what I can gather right now, you can't cover all the four patterns on all the strings without using all the boxes at some point (which totally makes sense, otherwise there'd be gaps in fretboard coverage). It also seems to me that in the long run ("other people" notwithstanding  ;) ) it might be easier (or at least more logical and purposeful) to look at this from the root note point of view and how the scale builds to the left and to the right, instead of seeing it as one big diagram of interconnected boxes.

Your thoughts on the matter are certainly appreciated and if you have more where these came from, please go wild!  :cool:
 

MuddyFox

Blues Newbie
I think there is something a little deeper at play here... this really isn't a question of learning boxes or not - or how to best learn boxes.

If you've got the house patterns and box 1, you're already playing a lot of music. So what I can assume is that you now feel stifled and are ready to explore more of the fretboard, is that correct?

Hey thanks for chiming in, big G!

That's exactly right. One part of my "problem" is that I'd like to explore more of the fretboard than what box1 offers.
The other part is that as with diatonics, I just can't see pent/blues boxes in my mind's eye, let alone interconnected into one "supershape" that covers the entire fretboard. My mind just doesn't work that way and I'd like to be able to build the needed scale bit off of the root note, as this would enable me to change registers at will and therefore move around the fretboard with more ease.

Rather than trying to learn all 5 boxes at once, why not start with box 3, which builds really nicely off the house pattern.

Let's say you're playing a blues in G using the major house pattern (index finger on the 8th fret G on the 2nd string...)

When the IV chord comes along, if your first finger stays on that G and you imagine box 3 around it (meaning the other note on that string would be the 11th fret) you have G minor blues right there.

You can explore that sound for a few weeks until you feel like you've really got it down, and then maybe try box 4 built around that same G when the I chord returns for more major sound instead of the house pattern.

Just those 2 "challenges" for yourself will handle you learning the 2 boxes, and make music along the way - and it's a lot more fun than just trying to memorize the boxes thinking you should.

Now if I'm way off base on the "why" here... please let me know because this will make little sense (not the first time :)

So you are advocating learning the boxes first, baby-steps-style? I will certainly give your suggestion a go and see what happens, I'm just afraid of getting stuck in a pattern hell where to get to say 12th fret in your G blues example I'd need to move through the boxes starting at 3rd fret box1 and building my way all the way up to where I want to get. I'd rather like to be able to pick a G in the neighbourhood that I'd like to be in and go from there. SBS sounds like just the ticket, with the shapes needed actually being the boxes, only learned within an "immediate usability" framework and not just "because this is what n00bs need to do, as they always have, you'll thank me later" where I need to connect the dots through a gazillion personal a-ha moments just to reach the very thing that SBS teaches from the get-go, left/right/min/maj, something everyone gets to eventually.

I've been known to overcomplicate and overanalyze things before and this may just be one of those moments.  ::) What I think I'm asking is whether there is any harm in skipping learning the boxes per-se one after the other and doing SBS and learning the boxes as they come up but immediately in the min/maj/left/right concept, always tied to a root note?
 

Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
I definitely advocate learning the boxes 1 at a time, that's why they are not all in 1 lesson in BGU.

You'll notice that you learn box 1, then learn a solo. Then we add on box 2, then we have another couple of solos before moving on to boxes 3 through 5.

It's much easier and much more musical to add more fretboard real estate in small pieces as you need them. At times you may get stuck in one region but it'll pass, it always does. And you'll know that as you learn a new region you are adding and not replacing what you already know.
 

MuddyFox

Blues Newbie
OK, thanks, duly noted!

On the other hand (devil's advocate and all that), going back to blues in G... what if I want to play something in the region to the left of the box 1? I need to wait until I learn all the boxes until I reach box 5 that integrates with box 1 from the left. And I still don't know how to immediately (jam night, drop of a hat kinda thing) recognize which box to use for a specific key and part of the fretboard, other than counting up from box 1? Wouldn't root based approach work better here?

With the root based idea, if I learn the box to the left and to the right of a say 6th string root, not only have I covered a nice 6-7-8 fret span, I also have another one of those 12 frets up and it's only the region 6->11 (roughly) out of 1->18 that's missing. That's quite a lot of frets covered, even with two boxes, n'est ce pas?

I'm not trying to troll here, genuinely interested in opinions from folks who've been all the way down this road...
 

Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
There is certainly no rule that says you have to learn them in order, I just assumed that you were looking to make your way up the neck from box 1 and 2.

By all means, go left and learn box 5 next. It probably makes more sense in many ways.

I learned the boxes more by root notes that made sense to me. When I wanted to be able to play A minor pentatonic from the A on the 5th string, I needed box 4 so I learned it... that's just kind of how it went. Everyone is different.
 

MuddyFox

Blues Newbie
Well that's kinda what I'm getting at. Learning boxes one after the other until one comes full circle makes very little sense to me until one actually completes the circle.  ;D

Learning them tied directly to root notes (we are in the business of targetting notes, after all) makes a whole lotta more sense and just picking up the bits you need to support the root concept. This inevitably leads to learning the boxes, just not in any sort of numerically incremental fashion. I was just wondering whether there's anyone here on the board that's gone that way before and apparently you have, of all people!  :D ;)
 

MikeS

Student Of The Blues
Staff member
I kind of wish that BGU had taught the boxes like a spilled drink. The spilled drink being box one then the other boxes spreading out from there. I learned them in order and, because of my limited attention span, I know:
box one the best
box two next best
box three next best
box four not so well
box five slightly better than four (because I've forced myself to move from box one to box five)

for me learning box one, then box five, then box two would probably have been best. (Which is kind of the left/right thing)

When I say "learning" the boxes I really mean " Make music with" the boxes.
 
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