new recording setup

[snarf]

Haven't really done much recording up until now, but want to start trying to get in on some of the fun down here in the basement. So I pulled out all my recording gear, added a little bit to it, and am trying to learn a new DAW. Put me an actual desk in my little music room, and I got everything all setup today. So I'm testing it out.

So this "for your review" isn't really about the playing. I was just jacking around testing the new setup. Those of you that have been doing this for a while, how does the mix sound? Is it about the right level? Is the guitar a sufficient level above the accompaniment? There are some fizzy parts about 30 seconds in. What did I do wrong there or did I just have my level too high? Any input will be appreciated.

Linky

 

[Silicon Valley Tom]

I think that your are on the right path! The levels seemed good to me. Keep up the good work.

You could try to change settings but be sure that you record the levels for each recording to see what works best. Sound can be very subjective!

Tom

 

[PapaRaptor]

Two out of three DAWs say your record levels are too hot. I opened it in Cubase, Studio One and Adobe Audition. Cubase and Adobe Audition show that you're clipping. Studio One doesn't say you're clipping, but you are right at the 0db ceiling. The audio quality sounds excellent and I heard no audible signs of clipping, As far as audio quality, it sounded like the high end might be a little too hot, but it may seem fine to others.

Welcome to the dungeon!

 

[snarf]

Funny that you mentioned that Studio One isn't showing it clipping. That's the one that I'm trying to learn...using the free version, but, if I can figure it out, I plan on buying Artist.

it sounded like the high end might be a little too hot,

That's kind of what I was thinking. Like I said, part of it sounded fizzy to me. So is that something that I'd just pull the overall level down a bit to fix or is that where I need to tweak the highs on the EQ?

Since I'm still using the free version of S1, I'm using a little usb mixer I had in the closet rather than their interface. Running the guitar through the mixer, and running the mixer into S1. I'm guessing that I may've had the gain for that channel on the mixer a bit high. I may try dropping that a bit and try again. If that doesn't work, I'll raise that back up and try the EQ thing.

 

[CaptainMoto]

Just catching up on this.

First I'd say, pretty darn good for early learning.
As good as most VJR contributions.
I can recall my early attempt at recording.....it wasn't pretty.
You done good.

Guitar level is a little hot but, that's an easy fix, I think those things have volume knobs on them.
Seriously though, there are multiple layers of gain that you need to be mindful of:
-Guitar Volume
-Pedal Gain
-Mixer input
-Mixer output
-DAW input

If you get those all correct you should have a clean, strong, undistorted signal.

Once the signal gain stages are all to your liking, the process starts again inside the DAW, with the faders, making sure that each track is set for a good balance without overloading the master at the main fader.

Although, this is not a very precise method to evaluate your input levels, you can use your eyes to evaluate a decent signal level. Generally speaking, if the wave form on the track is filling approximately 50% of the available vertical range, you're gonna be OK.......not too weak, not too strong. That said, it is possible to distort the sound before it gets to the DAW resulting in a nice looking wave form but the sound was distorted prior to getting into the DAW.

In your case, I did not hear any clipping so, your input level was probably good.
All you need to do is use the faders in S1 to balance the guitar against backing track then, adjust the main stereo channel to achieve the desired level without clipping. At this stage it becomes an exercise in how loud can you get while preserving the sound quality.

There could be times when you struggle getting the mix volume to an acceptable level without clipping.
A quick fix many people use is to "normalize" the track, often that will help raise the level of a track without clipping.

Welcome to recording!

 

[PapaRaptor]

Funny that you mentioned that Studio One isn't showing it clipping. That's the one that I'm trying to learn...using the free version, but, if I can figure it out, I plan on buying Artist.
That's kind of what I was thinking. Like I said, part of it sounded fizzy to me. So is that something that I'd just pull the overall level down a bit to fix or is that where I need to tweak the highs on the EQ?

Since I'm still using the free version of S1, I'm using a little usb mixer I had in the closet rather than their interface. Running the guitar through the mixer, and running the mixer into S1. I'm guessing that I may've had the gain for that channel on the mixer a bit high. I may try dropping that a bit and try again. If that doesn't work, I'll raise that back up and try the EQ thing.

Based on what you mentioned, I assume you ran the guitar signal completely dry (without any S1 Processing). With Prime, there is no active EQ filter (their Pro EQ plug-in is in the Artist and Pro versions, not Prime). Does your USB mixer have any EQ on it? You can use that to knock down the highs a little bit. Another option in S1 Prime is to use the Ampire plug-in. They only give you the Marshall emulation, but at least it gives you bass, middle, treble and presence controls. Without any tone shaping (i.e., guitar plugged straight into the board), it is going to sound kind of harsh.

As CaptainMoto said, it's a more than respectable first outing. The more you do it, the more you'll discover what you like and don't like.

 

[snarf]

With Prime, there is no active EQ filter (their Pro EQ plug-in is in the Artist and Pro versions, not Prime). Does your USB mixer have any EQ on it?

I've been watching some of your vids and some vids on youtube trying to figure S1 out, and have noticed that there are several things that y'all can do that Prime doesn't do. I hadn't noticed the EQ thing yet, though. The mixer I have seems to have a LOT on it, including EQ. Last night, I ended up dropping the High EQ and the gain for that channel on the mixer and those fizzies I was hearing seemed to go away.

Prior to now, in the couple of times a year I'd post something, I'd throw the jam track in Audacity, play over it, and hope for the best. Decided that, if I'm going to take part in the VJR, I should learn to do it right. Although, between S1 and the mixer, I think I may've bit off a bit more than I should've all at once.

Here's a pic of the new setup. I asked a month or so back about recommendations for a multi effect for a buddy doing a church gig and ended up pointing him towards a Vox ToneLab that GC had on their used page. I liked it so well that I got one too, although, the one I got was a step down from the one that he got. So I've got my guitar going into the ToneLab and using that as an amp/speaker emulator. I've got the signal from that running into channels 1 and 2 on the mixer (a Behringer that I bought because it had a usb output, and then promptly put in the closet because it was too much for quick recording). I, also, set the mixer up so I could do some late night playing and not disturb anyone. Then I've got the mixer running to the laptop into S1. The one thing I have already decided is that I need to get a studio monitor of some sort hooked into all of it. Last night, I was surprised how tired my ears got wearing headphones for so long.

Neeways, I appreciate everyone's input so far. Nice to know I'm headed the right direction with it. I'm guessing that, as with all things guitar, a lot of the finer details will come down to my ear and what I hear and whether or not I like it.

 

[snarf]

A quick fix many people use is to "normalize" the track, often that will help raise the level of a track without clipping.

Was reading about this last night. I found the setting for it (I think), now I just need to figure out how it works. lol

 

[CaptainMoto]

Pretty tidy set up.
My experience is that no matter if its a complicated or basic setup, it will serve you best if it's set up ergonomically so when you're in a creative mood, it's easy to get going without messing with cords and gear.

Normalize is in S1, nothing much to do, just activate it on the track and it does it's thing.

Regarding monitors:
I think that's a great next step.
There are lots of affordable options out there, I've had few different sets over time.
If you're interested in good sound in a small package, I'd recommend looking at these:
Amazing sound out a a tiny foot print they'd fit nicely right on your desk.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/iLoudMicro--ik-multimedia-iloud-micro-monitors-pair

 

[CaptOblivious]

2nd the iLoud micro recommendation, mine sound amazing for the size - couldn't be happier

 

[MikeS]

Was reading about this last night. I found the setting for it (I think), now I just need to figure out how it works. lol

Just a heads up about normalizing. It won't help you much if you signal is weak. In fact it will hurt. I've tried to increase the level, but, as Lloyd told me, it also increases the noise along with the guitar. In my case to the point of the track being useless.

 

[Silicon Valley Tom]

Just a heads up about normalizing. It won't help you much if you signal is weak. In fact it will hurt. I've tried to increase the level, but, as Lloyd told me, it also increases the noise along with the guitar. In my case to the point of the track being useless.

I have been recording audio for 59 years, and one thing that has not changed is "it is best to have audio levels set to 0 db"! For some systems it is fine to go over or under 2 or 3 db on the VU meter. If you are in the ball park, things will be fine. If you record at or around -20 db, and try to raise the level, you will raise the noise floor along with it and that is not desirable. If you record solos and singers at the highest level, and reduce the background, that will work fine. Some of the audio work I have heard recently has everyone at the same level. If you want to "understand what is going on", that is not a good thing!

Working at AMPEX for 15 years as an engineer, allowed me to become acquainted with some of the worlds leading recording engineers. They were a fun group to work with. Did they have stories about recording!

Tom

 

[CaptainMoto]

Just a heads up about normalizing. It won't help you much if you signal is weak. In fact it will hurt. I've tried to increase the level, but, as Lloyd told me, it also increases the noise along with the guitar. In my case to the point of the track being useless.

Normalizing can be a quick fix in some situations.
Personally, I never use it but, I've noted many people like it for fixing their VJR contributions, that's why I mentioned it.

I don't have the experience that folks like Tom have but, I'm slowly learning......usually the hard way.

About signal levels:
Tom mentioned VU meters, just keep in mind analog VU meters are much different then signal meters you'll find in your DAW.
For those of us with less experience in analog recording, following what was done "in the day" may not necessarily be the same in the digital world.
I've recently started using an (analog emulation) VU meter on my tracks as a quick visual reference, I'm shooting for a digital signal level closer to -18db.

If you want to use an old style VU meter in your DAW, here's a FREE download:
I do recommend you Google to understand Digital FS vs analog VU.
https://www.tb-software.com/TBProAudio/mvmeter.html

 

[PapaRaptor]

I have been recording audio for 59 years, and one thing that has not changed is "it is best to have audio levels set to 0 db"! For some systems it is fine to go over or under 2 or 3 db on the VU meter. If you are in the ball park, things will be fine. If you record at or around -20 db, and try to raise the level, you will raise the noise floor along with it and that is not desirable. Of you record solos and singers at the highest level, and reduce the background, that will work fine. Some of the audio work I have heard recently has everyone at the same level. If you want to "understand what is going on", that is not a good thing!

Working at AMPEX for 15 years as an engineer, allowed me to become acquainted with some of the worlds leading recording engineers. They were a fun group to work with. Did they have stories about recording!

Tom

I grew up recording live bands with an old tube type Roberts tape recorder and with respect to tape, I could not agree with you more.

But I've found the world of DAWs to play by somewhat different rules. You can record each individual channel up to 0db, but most DAW software doesn't gracefully enter the red zone at 0db. Any gear that does so is basically masking what is really going on and either is overreporting the signal level or is hiding a limiter to keep from running out of bits once all 16bits are flipped (0db). Analog tape (as I'm sure you're aware) would simply run out of high frequency space once saturation was reached, which is a much less audible form of distortion than the pure square wave flat topping that occurs on digital gear.
For that reason, most of the recording info I've read suggests setting an individual channel so that it's peaks are no higher than -6db, but this is strictly a judgement call, as you can always mix-down a loud signal to a lower level. The consequences of recording analog tape "too loud" was a much more forgiving sin.

With modern equipment, I wouldn't be at all concerned with a recorded signal averaging -20db and bringing it up. At such levels on modern digital gear, the noise floor should still be a very minimum of 50db below the average signal. Certainly in the days of analog tape, even the best gear around could only achieve a signal to noise ratio of about 65-70 db, with about 70db being the best case for a pristine pressing of a vinyl LP, played on top notch equipment. Even today's CD weighs in with a potential 90db sig-to-noise ratio at 44.1Khz and 16bit sampling. The noise floor on today's digital gear betters the best of the analog days by over 20db, which translates into a lot of clean signal that would be so low as to be in the mud on analog gear.

Just as a reference, the "soup-to-nuts" recordings I did a few months ago where I played all the tracks except drums, the dry instruments (bass and guitar) were all recorded with peaks no higher than about -20db. This is encouraged by the DAW manufacturers and the plug-in companies so as to optimize their ability to properly process the instrument through the signal chain without having to seriously reduce levels while the audio is in a digital state.

 

[CaptainMoto]

A decent video on the VU topic:

 

[Silicon Valley Tom]

I grew up recording live bands with an old tube type Roberts tape recorder and with respect to tape, I could not agree with you more.

But I've found the world of DAWs to play by somewhat different rules. You can record each individual channel up to 0db, but most DAW software doesn't gracefully enter the red zone at 0db. Any gear that does so is basically masking what is really going on and either is overreporting the signal level or is hiding a limiter to keep from running out of bits once all 16bits are flipped (0db). Analog tape (as I'm sure you're aware) would simply run out of high frequency space once saturation was reached, which is a much less audible form of distortion than the pure square wave flat topping that occurs on digital gear.
For that reason, most of the recording info I've read suggests setting an individual channel so that it's peaks are no higher than -6db, but this is strictly a judgement call, as you can always mix-down a loud signal to a lower level. The consequences of recording analog tape "too loud" was a much more forgiving sin.

With modern equipment, I wouldn't be at all concerned with a recorded signal averaging -20db and bringing it up. At such levels on modern digital gear, the noise floor should still be a very minimum of 50db below the average signal. Certainly in the days of analog tape, even the best gear around could only achieve a signal to noise ratio of about 65-70 db, with about 70db being the best case for a pristine pressing of a vinyl LP, played on top notch equipment. Even today's CD weighs in with a potential 90db sig-to-noise ratio at 44.1Khz and 16bit sampling. The noise floor on today's digital gear betters the best of the analog days by over 20db, which translates into a lot of clean signal that would be so low as to be in the mud on analog gear.

Just as a reference, the "soup-to-nuts" recordings I did a few months ago where I played all the tracks except drums, the dry instruments (bass and guitar) were all recorded with peaks no higher than about -20db. This is encouraged by the DAW manufacturers and the plug-in companies so as to optimize their ability to properly process the instrument through the signal chain without having to seriously reduce levels while the audio is in a digital state.

KOOL!

By the way, AMPEX owned Roberts. My first recording tape was Roberts, which I purchased in1961. I still have the tape!

Tom

 

[PapaRaptor]

A decent video on the VU topic:

Wow! There is a bunch of stuff on there I knew, but didn't know why it was. There was also a lot of stuff on there I didn't know. Thanks for sharing that video, Captain!

 

[BigMike]

Good video, Graham is very good at simplifying technical issues in digital recording.

 

[CaptainMoto]

Good video, Graham is very good at simplifying technical issues in digital recording.

Graham refers to 'Clip Gain" as it applied to ProTools.
Just an FYI,
If anyone is wondering how you do that in Studio One:

 

[BraylonJennings]

Graham refers to 'Clip Gain" as it applied to ProTools.
Just an FYI,
If anyone is wondering how you do that in Studio One:
View attachment 13167

In Studio One v5, there is another way to get more clip gain adjustments. Right click on an event and turn on the gain adjustments. This makes the event adjustable in the same way it works in a volume automation lane. A very convenient way to adjust volume multiple ways in events in a track, without the commitment of automation. Probably my favorite version 5 feature.