Neck relief

[patb]

I bought ( on a guitar tech's advice) a stewmac tool which I believe is intended to measure the height of an archtop acoustic. The legs at each end to rest on the neck are 13 1/2 inches apart and the movable leg in the middle with a gauge. It is not stable and rocks on the leg points. As it rocks the measurement changes. Is this tool actually usable? If so ... help!!
I am measuring the neck on a Strat and a Gibson ES 339. The measurements I'm getting make no sense and seem to depend on whether the tool is perfectly perpendicular to the neck. Does the longer Strat scale matter?
I would like , I think , a relief of .08. Any help appreciated. Pat B

 

[JPsuff]

Not to sound overly simplistic but I've always liked a straight neck and when I set things up I like to do it by eye.

I like a low action and I start with the usual "quarter" on the 12th fret and go from there.
If I hear a buzz, I turn the bridge up (or space it on an acoustic) until it stops and that's pretty much it.

All of my guitars play fine.

Jus' sayin' is all.

 

[CapnDenny1]

You have to press it down where the gauge is. The dial indicator is spring loaded, so you have to compress the spring to get the measurement.

 

[BraylonJennings]

You have to press it down where the gauge is. The dial indicator is spring loaded, so you have to compress the spring to get the measurement.

Doesn't the device being only 13.5 inches long give you a different result than you would get using a string or a longer straight edge?

 

[patb]

It reaches approximately from the 2nd fret to the 15th where the neck is bolted or set and measures at the 8th. That's where the relief is.

 

[patb]

The issue is not pressing it down but rocking it to determine the reading. Rocking it one way increases the reading and rocking it the other way lessens it so I can't figure out how to get the true reading. It has to be perpendicular to the fretboard for an accurate reading.

 

[PapaRaptor]

I'm not familiar with that particular tool and I rarely work on acoustic guitars. If you're primarily setting up an electric, Fender's instructions are pretty good for an overall setup, even if you're working on a guitar with a different scale length.
When I learned to do setups, I was scouring the pawn shops of south Florida on Saturdays and would often come home with two or three guitars in need of varying amounts of TLC.
This is the link to the directions I used when I first started setting up guitars and from my experience, I would suggest that it's not going to be much different in setting up a different scale instrument. I even use this setup information on bass guitars and have set up guitars and basses ranging from 24 3/4" scale to 34" and with fretboard radii from 7.25" to around 14".
For truss rod adjustments, you don't really need anything more than a capo, proper truss rod wrench (or possibly screw driver), a straight edge rule around 18"~ 20" and a set of feeler gauges. For touching up, you don't really need the straight edge.

How do I set up my Stratocaster® guitar properly? · Customer Self-Service

fendercustomersupport.microsoftcrmportals.com

 

[CapnDenny1]

OK, what you have doesn't match what Stewmac has?

https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-too...for-necks-and-fingerboards/neck-relief-gauge/

There is no "rocking" involved. You set it to zero by pressing it down on a know flat plate. Then you adjust the dial indicator to zero.

The put the end pins on the frets at either end of the neck and the dial pin needs to rest on the fret at the center of that span. Then you press it down, so that both end pins are flush to the top of their respective frets. The dial then reads your neck relief.

I think what you have is a general straightness machinist tool. Notice the Stewmac tool has flats on either end, which would be a lot easier to hold onto a fret. In fact the holes in each end would make it easy to put a piece of elastic through and wrap around the neck to hold it in place. Then I guess you could adjust it while watching the gauge.

I always loosen the strings before I adjust the truss rod to reduce stress on the truss rod. Then I have to re-tune it to measure it. It's a pain, but I'd rather do that than damage the truss rod. Maybe overkill, but I don't adjust them very often.

 

[patb]

I have the neck relief set at ~ .06 and strings at .060 at the 9th fret. I'm getting a glassy brittle sound around the 12th fret.
I normally like the neck at ~ .08 and the strings at .04 but this is where I am in the process. I'm trying to find a neck relief and string height that will work for fretting and slide.

 

[PapaRaptor]

I'm not sure what you're saying, Pat. A neck relief of .06" at the 8th fret or 9th (assuming you're using a capo at the first fret and fretting the 6th string at the last fret is entirely too much relief. Do you mean .006"? Also, what are you doing to come up with your second measurement (strings)?

The brittle sound around the 12th fret is probably the strings "fretting out." Is it happening on your Strat or your 339 (or another instrument)? If that is the case, what is your string height measured at the 17th fret? On a Strat it should be in the neighborhood of 4/64" (1/16") and in the same range at the 15th fret on a Gibson instrument. These measurements should be taken with open strings (no capo).

 

[Stinger22]

For truss rod adjustments, you don't really need anything more than a capo, proper truss rod wrench (or possibly screw driver), a straight edge rule around 18"~ 20" and a set of feeler gauges. For touching up, you don't really need the straight edge.

A good straight edge is good to have for lots of things and makes checking neck relief with a set of good feeler gauges a breeze. I can do an initial check hold down a D string at the first fret and at the neck joint with my hands and us a spare finger to tap the string and then use the straight edge and feelers to dial in. .007" - .005" for mine usually works. Although I have been able to set lower on some guitars I like the feeling of a little relief for bending.

 

[jackderby52]

This site is gold. Hopefully it helps.

Thoughts on Neck Relief

www.bryankimsey.com

Guitar Setup Tips and Ideas

www.bryankimsey.com

 

[Stinger22]

This site is gold. Hopefully it helps.

Thoughts on Neck Relief

www.bryankimsey.com

Guitar Setup Tips and Ideas

www.bryankimsey.com

And backup to just the "setup" page and some good tips!

 

[patb]

After numerous interruptions I have set the neck relief and string action to Fender recommendations using feeler gauges. It seems to be playing well including bends. I may raise the relief or string action for sliding.
Which brings me to the next question. What are the advantages to increasing neck relief over raining string action or vice versa?
Thanks to all that responded. Papa, thanks to you for the link for Fender recommendations.
Pat

 

[PapaRaptor]

Which brings me to the next question. What are the advantages to increasing neck relief over raining string action or vice versa?

Either way is a legitimate approach. However, if I was operating on my own guitars, I would simply raise the action because it is the easiest to do and also the easiest to undo. I also don't like to ask the wood in the neck to possibly assume more than one position. Once the relief is properly set, raising the action will cause no significant change in string tension.

Having said that, allowing more relief in the neck will cause the string to fretboard distance to increase more quickly than raising the action. It will also (IMHO) make the instrument much less playable as you move up the neck. Either solution will make it less comfortable to fret, but allowing more relief will raise your string action at a much lower point on the neck.

Allowing more relief will have a more dramatic effect on your intonation, since for a larger part of the neck, you will have to push the string down farther to contact the fret, with the higher fretted notes going sharp much earlier than by simply raising action.

Again, either option is a trade-off for the sake of using a slide. One way to lessen the downside of either method is to increase your string thickness. If you're used to using .010s, you might bump to .011s or even .012s to allow better slide response. Obviously the downside of this is going to be your fingers when you fret notes. More effort will be required. It may also be necessary for you to reset your neck relief and possibly increase the nut slots to allow for heavier strings. None of the alternatives is a panacea and it is really up to you which way you go. It's your guitar and only you will know which option will work best for you.

My slide playing sounds like I'm murdering cats, so the three slides I have around the house rarely get used.

 

[patb]

Changing up strings to .010's is probably my first try. If my arthritic fingers can make the bends it is an easy alternative and easily remedied if it doesn't work.
Thanks Papa.

 

[JohnHurley]

So i dont play slide first.

But Joanna Connor does and she says setup the guitar as a guitar with the action that you want. Then get used to playing slide and get better …

Someone asked: is that true even if you like low action. She said yup just keep practicing …

 

[CapnDenny1]

I never adjusted for slide. I found that by being careful you can still do it.

I started using one of these.

JetSlide Guitar Slide

Get the guaranteed best price on Metal Bars like the JetSlide Guitar Slide at Musician's Friend. Get a low price and free shipping on thousands of items.

www.musiciansfriend.com

It allowed me to have better control and be able to use less pressure.

 

[PapaRaptor]

I never adjusted for slide. I found that by being careful you can still do it.

I started using one of these.

JetSlide Guitar Slide

Get the guaranteed best price on Metal Bars like the JetSlide Guitar Slide at Musician's Friend. Get a low price and free shipping on thousands of items.

www.musiciansfriend.com

It allowed me to have better control and be able to use less pressure.

I like that! Gonna have to get me one of those!

 

[JPsuff]

Either way is a legitimate approach. However, if I was operating on my own guitars, I would simply raise the action because it is the easiest to do and also the easiest to undo. I also don't like to ask the wood in the neck to possibly assume more than one position. Once the relief is properly set, raising the action will cause no significant change in string tension.

Having said that, allowing more relief in the neck will cause the string to fretboard distance to increase more quickly than raising the action. It will also (IMHO) make the instrument much less playable as you move up the neck. Either solution will make it less comfortable to fret, but allowing more relief will raise your string action at a much lower point on the neck.

Allowing more relief will have a more dramatic effect on your intonation, since for a larger part of the neck, you will have to push the string down farther to contact the fret, with the higher fretted notes going sharp much earlier than by simply raising action.

Again, either option is a trade-off for the sake of using a slide. One way to lessen the downside of either method is to increase your string thickness. If you're used to using .010s, you might bump to .011s or even .012s to allow better slide response. Obviously the downside of this is going to be your fingers when you fret notes. More effort will be required. It may also be necessary for you to reset your neck relief and possibly increase the nut slots to allow for heavier strings. None of the alternatives is a panacea and it is really up to you which way you go. It's your guitar and only you will know which option will work best for you.

My slide playing sounds like I'm murdering cats, so the three slides I have around the house rarely get used.

That's why I like a straight neck -- there's less to think about and no math or specialized gauges involved.

The idea of having more height in the middle of the neck and less on opposing ends seems weird to me.
My Epi LP Custom started life with very low action and I've brought it down a bit more over the years to the point where it may actually seem unplayable to some people but I love it.

One of the more common problems with very low action as you move towards the top of the neck is fretting out or causing the strings to touch the frets as they are pressed down while playing above the 12th fret or so. This has something to do with nut slot height in that in order to keep the strings (mainly the wound strings) from buzzing on the lower frets, a certain amount of height in the nut slots is needed. But with low action that can be problematic as you go upwards towards the bridge to the point where fretting out the strings becomes an issue.

What I've done on two guitars is to cut a "fallaway" in the last 7 or 8 frets so that I can maintain the low action throughout the neck while still having a reasonable nut slot height but not having to worry about fretting out the strings up top. A fallaway is a simply hack that's done when leveling or dressing frets and it involves cutting the last 7 or 8 frets at an angle so that they "fall away" from the overall plane of the fretboard so that the strings cannot touch the upper frets when playing above the 12th fret. It's only a few thousandths of an inch and it does not affect intonation but it does allow for both a straight neck profile and very low action.

It's not exactly neck relief, but it is a neck adjustment that works quite well if done correctly.