major minor thing - apologies in advance

[mpaq]

I know this is covered here in multiple threads but every time I try to figure this out I end up all over the board and get off on too many tangents for this to really crystalize in my mind. Im close but still a little confused. My understanding is ......

At the fifth fret with the key of A, the roots are on the sixth and first string (5th fret) and 4th string (7th fret). The pentatonic minor scale is box 1.
So, the relative major to A is the key of C and can be played at the same location by using box 2. If I focus on the same roots, it is still the key of A but with a major sound as opposed to a minor.....but it is still the key of A not C. If i move down the 3 frets as oppposed to changing the shape at the 5th fret, I need to stay in box 1. Am I right so far?

Here's where it gets confusing to me.....the relative major  is supposed to be 3 frets down from the minor. However the sixth string roots are F# not C or A. If I focus on the sixth string root with the same box pattern (1), I am really playing the scale of F#minor...so it doesn't sound any different, its just lower keyed. So which shape should I be playing to get the major sound at this position, and which roots should I focus on? Or should i just stay in position five and just change to box 2 but still focus on the A root note?

I don't want to learn any bad habits or workarounds so want to understand this correctly before I start transposing to other keys...

thanks guys.

 

[jmin]

I'm struggling right along with you, mpaq. Just FYI, I recently ordered Griff's new course, Major/Minor Blues Shapes...I'm hoping it will address exactly what you are asking.
My take is that in the Key of A, the "relative minor" is the F#. And if you play the F# minor pentatonic, it's the same as the A major pentatonic. The F# minor, Box 2, does start on the sixth string, fifth fret, and the "root" would be on the fourth string, 4th fret (F#) (and 2nd string, 7th fret). But, since your playing the A "major" pentatonic, use the A as the root, same as you do for the "minor" pentatonic.
Wow, now I'm not so sure I didn't just confuse myself!
That's why I ordered the course!

 

[Terry B]

The relative major to A minor is indeed C, and the scale for C major is played in the same location but using the same box 1 rather than box 2, and the roots are now at the 8th fret of strings 1 and 6 and the 5th fret of string 3.

On the other hand A is the relative major to F# minor, and the same applies; as they are three frets in either direction. A being three frets up from F#, C being three up from A.

Hope this makes sense and also hope I understand the question correctly. [smiley=undecided.gif]

 

[OG_Blues]

I've got a different take on how to approach this.
It may or may not make sense to everyone, but I think it is really the simplified essence of SBS, and the final result or objective of it.
First: Work at moving beyond trying to relate everything to the boxes. Griff clearly states in SBS that ultimately this is the goal - the boxes are only used as a means for communication to start out with because most people already know them. Read the paragraphs at the top of page 18.
Second: All you really need to know or decide, is based on the key or the current chord (to identify the root), and whether you want a major, minor, or mixed (major and minor) sound.
Based on that, you decide which of the 4 patterns to use to accomplish that.
End of story.
If you really need to relate to the boxes, the chart on page 38 gives it to you.
Possibly I am oversimplifying this, but I don't think so.
If it really helps an individual to relate back to the boxes to reinforce what you are doing, that's perfectly fine, but the real objective is to move beyond that. Learning to play any one of the 4 patterns from any root anywhere on the neck is how to get there. Which box any one of those is, is an academic relationship that may be helpful but is not necessary. Griff even refers to the boxes as a "crutch". A crutch is a useful, often necessary, but ideally temporary device, that helps one move beyond a limitation of some sort - in this case, the boxes.
I'm not saying it's easy.
Tom

 

[MikeS]

F#m is the relative minor of A Major, so if you play F#m (Box 1 starting at the 6th string 2nd fret), you are also playing A Major pentatonic. That's why box 2 starting at the 6th Sting 5th fret works for A Major.

Am is the relative minor of C Major, so if you play Am (Box 1 starting at the 6th string 5th fret), you are also playing C Major pentatonic. That's why box 2 starting at the 6th Sting 7th fret works for C Major.

Just saw Terry's answer. Same thing I said, but his is much clearer.

 

[mpaq]

Very helpful discussion guys, thanks. Key message takeaway = don't let the boxes box you in. Look at fretboard from a root/pattern perspective.

I wouldn't have thought I was guilty of this until I re-read my own question....

 

[Griff]

Very helpful discussion guys, thanks. Key message takeaway = don't let the boxes box you in. Look at fretboard from a root/pattern perspective.

I wouldn't have thought I was guilty of this until I re-read my own question....

Simply noticing that is at least half the battle.

Boxes are great for learning the notes, but sometimes it's hard to leave them behind or look at them in new ways. That's what you're struggling with but it will come.

 

[Silicon Valley Tom]

I look at the five boxes as if they are either major or minor.  You could say we have ten boxes to concern ourselves with.  What I think is important is the root positions of each box, as well as the corresponding notes.  For the Major Blues Boxes, learn where the 1, 2, b3, 3, 5, and 6 are in relation to each other.  For the Minor Blues Boxes, learn where the 1, b3, 4, b5, 5, and b7 are in relation to each other. 

The next step is to go to each key, one at a time, and become proficient using the corresponding I, IV, V progressions.  Then listen to what combinations of notes sound best.   :-?

It gets to a point where you do not have to think about it, but that comes with time.   

Tom      

 

[Paleo]

One thing that really helped me is that I knew the full Major and Minor scale patterns before I got into this. From there it's easier to see where the pentatonic patterns come from.

If you start on A on the 5th fret of the 6th string, the A minor pattern becomes what "we" call Box 1 and the A Major pattern becomes what we call Box 2 (Some consider this Major Box 1).  These are what we call parallel scales; scales that start on the same root, i.e. A Major and A minor.

You don't even have to consider relative Major and minor.  As others have stated, you just consider your root and decide if you want to go Major or Minor from there.

The point about major/relative minor is just that you get a different sound depending on where you start in the pattern. This is the same for all of the modes. If you play a major scale, but don't start on the root, it will sound different, i.e. a different mode.

Boxes are just patterns. Like modes, you get different sounds depending on where you start playing the pattern.  If you play box 1 starting on A, you get the A minor sound. But if you start on C (your 4th finger), you get a C major sound.

If you shift box 1 down so that your 4th finger in on A, you have A Major. But if you start from your 1st finger you have F# minor.

The point is, you could play A Minor with box 1 and then shift box 1 down to play A Major. But what Griff is teaching us is to play both the Major and Minor in the same position,i.e. without any shifting; i.e. parallel Major and Minor.

If thinking of the relative Maj/Minor confuses you, forget it.
It's only useful if you are shifting positions to get different sounds, which we are not doing here.

It might have been less confusing if the concept of relative scales was not introduced at all. On the other hand, since SBS in taught in the Key of G, the Major patterns came much easier to me when I realized they were the Em pentatonic patterns that most of us probably first learned, just changing perspective to concentrate on G as the root.

I guess there's a pro and con to everything.