Lesson 6 Endings

david moon

Attempting the Blues
Let's look at what we're dealing with here.

A blues tune. Not a big band or theater chart or any other king of "standard" song.

Griff is teaching a common rhythm figure. It's a repeating riff played in "swing 8s". He ends the lesson by tacking on what he calls "the Bassie ending". He could just show me the riff, the breaks and the ending and I wouldn't even need tab or standard notation.

But as usual, he shows both. In actuality, the swing notation is there to tell us how to play the riff.

Now the ending. Most of us, myself included, wouldn't even look at the standard notation. But someone did and they noticed it's notated 2 different ways.

One with a dotted quarter, which means the beat is divided in 2, i.e. the ending is in straight time. The dotted quarter "flags" it. It's not some radical change. It's just an ending.

And since the beat is divided in 2, it can be written the other way, as an 8th tied to a quarter. No quarrel there. But that's not what I'm talking about.



But if the rest and 8th notes are considered a triplet, the rest is 2/3 of the beat, just as you say, and the 8th gets the remaining 1/3 of the beat. So it has to be written as a rest followed by an 8th tied to a quarter. It can't be written the other way because it's not a 1/2 beat.

The 8th note is either 1/2 a beat and in straight time and can be written either way or it's 1/3 of a triplet played as a swing 8 and is 1/3 of a beat and can only be written the one way.

It can't be both.

In my previous replies to the OP I tried to find plausible reasons why Griff would intentionally write it 2 different ways or why maybe 2 different programs might interpret it 2 different ways.

If my instructions were to treat every 8th note as a swing 8th I would consider the rest and the 8th note to be a triplet and write it as an 8th tied to a quarter, 1 and 1/3 beats total.

But if I was instructed to treat the 8th rest as 1/2 beat the 8th would also be 1/2 beat I would have the option of writing it the 2 different ways.

Like I said, I don't know anything about writing programs or how a program would make that decision or transition.

Bottom Line: Either the rest and note are a triplet and written one way or they're straight and can be written 2 ways. You and I have options, but does the software program?

But I'm just repeating myself.......again.o_O
I prefer the notation of eighth rest, eighth tied to quarter because it gives a strong visual cue that the first rest and eighth comprise the first beat, and the tied quarter comprises the second beat. The eighths are still "swing eighths".

The dotted quarter is equal to 3 eighths. I don't see it as a flag to switch to "straight" eighths. The first rest would still be 2/3 of a beat and the dotted quarter would be 1 and 1/3 beat.

I would play both notations exactly the same.
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
The dotted quarter is equal to 3 eighths. The first rest would still be 2/3 of a beat and the dotted quarter would be 1 and 1/3 beat.

Every time I think I get it something still doesn't seem to add up.

The beat is divided into three "8th" notes. The dotted quarter is equal to three "8ths", which equal 1 beat. So how can it also be 1 and 1/3 beats?

12:8.jpg
I look at this example and I understand that the dotted quarters and dotted rests are each equal to three 8th notes = 1 beat. (1 dotted quarter = 3 eights = 1 beat)

I just can't seem to understand how a dotted quarter can then equal 1 and 1/3 beats elsewhere.

I still gotta wrestle with this some more.
 
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david moon

Attempting the Blues
The "swing eighths" are a shorthand to not writing everything in 12/8. In the swing feel, the first eighth is 2/3 of the beat and the second is 1/3, and if there are all three triplets it is notated as such.

Swing eighths if notated in 12/8 would be quarter eighth quarter eighth....

In swing eighths a dotted quarter that begins on the "uh" is 1 and 1/3 beat. If if began on the beat it would be 1 and 2/3 beat.

Hope this is not more confusing.
 
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david moon

Attempting the Blues
Every time I think I get it something still doesn't seem to add up.

The beat is divided into three "8th" notes. The dotted quarter is equal to three "8ths", which equal 1 beat. So how can it also be 1 and 1/3 beats?

View attachment 3719
I look at this example and I understand that the dotted quarters and dotted rests are each equal to three 8th notes = 1 beat. (1 dotted quarter = 3 eights = 1 beat)

I just can't seem to understand how a dotted quarter can then equal 1 and 1/3 beats elsewhere.

I still gotta wrestle with this some more.
A dotted quarter indicates a quarter plus an eighth or three eighths. But by indicating "swing eighths", all eighths are not equal, some are 2/3 beat and some are 1/3 beat. Does that help?
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
A dotted quarter indicates a quarter plus an eighth or three eighths. But by indicating "swing eighths", all eighths are not equal, some are 2/3 beat and some are 1/3 beat. Does that help?

OK, so it's "situational"?

I always thought a dotted quarter meant play a quarter and hold it over for a half of it's time value.

In straight 4/4 that would be a beat and 1/2.

What I hear you saying is that it's always a quarter + an eighth, regardless of whether the 8th is equal to half of it in time or not?

So I guess it comes down to what adding a dot does. Is the dotted quarter the quarter's time value plus another half of its time value or is it always a quarter + an 8th regardless of the time value of the 8th? Apparently it's the latter?

So please check if my understanding from here on is correct.

In straight 4/4, 1/2 a quarter and an 8th are the same time value.

But in any kind of 8th note triplet they aren't because an 8th is 1/3 of a beat and you can't have 1/2 a beat when a beat is divided into 3, regardless if it's swing or not.

So in the example, the rest followed by a dotted quarter means you have an 8th, which is worth 1/3, followed by a quarter, which added together makes 1 and 1/3. So in this case the dotted quarter is not equal to it's value + half its value. Its equal to its value + whatever that 8th note happens to be worth. It's actually the 8th that's worth 1/3 that gets held over for another quarter.

Let's flip it and put the quarter note first, followed by an 8th and then the 8th rest. If I changed that to a dotted quarter and an 8th rest is the dotted quarter now worth 1 and 2/3 beats?

Here's what I'm understanding (or not).

1) In 12/8 a dotted quarter = 1 beat (actually 3/8th's grouped and counted as one beat, rather than 3 separate beats out of 12)
2) In straight 4/4 a dotted quarter = 1 and 1/2 beats (not because you add half its value, but because you add an 8th)
3) In swing time a dotted quarter = 1 and 1/3 beats if it follows the first note of a triplet, i.e. tied to the second
4) In swing time a dotted quarter = 1 and 2/3 beat if if precedes the second note of a triplet, i.e. tied to the first

This explains why the 2 different ways of writing the ending can be considered equal.



But that doesn't explain why it is written 2 different ways.

Griff is demonstrating the Tore Down Rhythm. Basically a 4 note repeating riff. Then he follows that with a variation, which simply changes the order of the 4 notes in the riff. The ending remains the same. The only other difference is the key.

He says the ending is the same. But it's not written the same.

The OP and the question I'm trying to answer is why notate it differently. If only the riff in the second example is different, why change the notation of the ending as well?

If they are the same, why make a change in notation for a second example that immediately follows the first?

Something is different between them and there has to be some kind of reason.

That's the question I've been dealing with.

Yes, as you say, they are equivalent and you would play them the same, but prefer one way over the other. Everybody is agreeing that they are equivalent.

But why are they notated differently?

Maybe Griff just felt like it. But it's not like him not to at least mention it.

The other possibilities I've come up with I've already explored, for better or worse.
 
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Paleo

Student Of The Blues
If anyone is still following this thread.......

I just re-watched Lesson 6 and noticed some things I hadn't before:

1) The onscreen tab running below Griff actually has the rests and stems, flags and dots above the numbers to show the note values.

2) Griff counts through both endings in swing time.

3) The last measure before the ending in 6.1 is notated differently onscreen than it is printed in the manual.

Ending 6.1 DVD.jpg

Onscreen, the first note is an 8th followed by an 8th rest.
Ending 6.1 Print.jpg
In the manual, the first note is a quarter note.



The last measure before the ending in 6.2 is also notated differently.Ending 6.2 Print.jpg
Here it's a whole note, even though Griff still "stops it short".

So not only is the ending notated 2 different ways, the measure before it is notated 3 different ways.

4) The "breaks" are also different between 6.1 and 6.2. In 6.1 the stops are just chord hits. In 6.2 there are fills/riffs that require all 3 notes in a triplet to be notated. Whereas in 6.1 every note was either a swing 8th or a quarter, except that one beat in the ending.

6.2 Fills.jpg
Continued in next reply
 

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Paleo

Student Of The Blues
5) Lastly, the 8ths are beamed differently. 6.1 beams 4 and 6.2 beams 2.

6.1 Beaming.jpg6.2 Beaming.jpg
So I'm back to thinking that all the differences are simply due to how different software programs work?
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
@david moon Thanks for all your help and, more importantly, your patience as I work my way through this.

Here's a quote from Joseph Alexander, taken from "The Complete Guide To Playing Blues Guitar Compilation", Ch 7 titled "Rhythmic Placement With Triplet Blues", p 44. (My underlining.)

"There are three 8th notes per beat.This doesn't make mathematical sense in the 'real' world but it is a musical convention and an extremely important concept in much of the music that you listen to."

Coincidentally, I just bought this on Monday. If I'd read this chapter first it would have saved us both a lot of time.

I'm still learning.:whistle:

Oh! One last question. Is the group of 3 notes called a triplet or is each note considered a triplet?
People seem to use the term both ways.:unsure:
 

Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
OK, so admittedly I didn't read all of the replies here, but I know I can accurately answer the original question.

I wrote the same thing 2 different ways, and I do that on purpose often so that you'll see there is more than one way to write things.

In 6-1, I used a dotted quarter, which is equal to a quarter tied to an eighth (or the reverse, an eighth tied to a quarter.) In 6-2 I used a tie - same function, 2 different ways to write it.

In the "real world," 6-2 is a better way (it's clearer.) Notation should ALWAYS prioritize clarity over brevity, but it rarely does. I HATE when I see charts that have a dotted quarter starting on the 2nd half of a beat, but it happens, so I wanted you to experience it.

I write all of my charts in Sibelius, and I go through them repeatedly with a fine toothed comb to make sure the notation is exactly how I want it to be. Sometimes I miss stuff, to be sure, but if you see something you can be 98% sure I did it that way on purpose.

Griff
 

Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
I'll see if I can get an audio clip of that.

I was researching the actual "Bassie Ending" yesterday and it's actually just the last 3 chords he plays as an ending and has nothing to do with any kind of chromatic run up to it. At least that's what "that expert" said.o_O

I thought I had this figured out, but I'm only getting more confused.

Griff says he's also heard it called an "Ellington Ending" so I'm off to check that out next.:whistle:
The ellington and basie endings are fundamentally the same in the rhythm (and this is covered in HTBBS, it never came up before that.)

I always heard the Ellington ending called a Basie ending when I was playing casuals, so it stuck with me (this was in the pre-internet before-times.)

Later, I heard it called an Ellington ending and I was confused... but I didn't hear that until about 4 or 5 years ago, after BGU 1.0, before BGU 2.0, so I mentioned it in 2.0.

Having gone back and listened to both band leaders (Basie and Ellington) I see that the notes are different but the rhythmic idea underlying them are not. So they are REALLY similar, but slightly different. So they are darn near interchangeable.

If you look at the moving note in the 3 chords that walk up a Basie ending, you'll see that they are the same notes that walk up an Ellington ending, but they are quarters instead of 1/8ths so there is less movement at the end.

I hope that helps some.
 

Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
Oh! One last question. Is the group of 3 notes called a triplet or is each note considered a triplet?
People seem to use the term both ways.:unsure:
The 3 notes together is called the triplet. Each individual note is called an 1/8th note still. You can also have quarter note triplets or even half note triplets (or 1/16th note triplets going the other direction.)

Griff
 

Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
That rest on beat two of the last measure just feels weird. Griff's ending is 1 & 2 3 4 1 & 2 &....
Compared to 1 & 2 3 4 1 (rest) 3&...
That particular ending (with the rest on beat 2) is what I call a "Half Basie" or "Half Ending" in HTBBS. The full one is what's in BGU, the half comes up in HTBBS.
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
The ellington and basie endings are fundamentally the same in the rhythm (and this is covered in HTBBS

That particular ending (with the rest on beat 2) is what I call a "Half Basie" or "Half Ending" in HTBBS. The full one is what's in BGU, the half comes up in HTBBS.
I'm embarrassed that I didn't know this was all covered in HTBBS. :oops:

So that's where I'm headed now.:rolleyes:
 
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Paleo

Student Of The Blues
I HATE when I see charts that have a dotted quarter starting on the 2nd half of a beat, but it happens, so I wanted you to experience it.
Mission accomplished.

The "experience" has been keeping me awake at night for the last 2 weeks.

Now I feel safe in saying I hate it, too.:whistle:
 
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Paleo

Student Of The Blues
I'm embarrassed that I didn't know this was all covered in HTBBS.

Just realized why I didn't know.

I was just about done with Modes Unleashed, when I was "interrupted" by the introduction of HTBBS. I was working through that when the November challenge came up. After that I tried going back to Modes, but Chord By Chord came out. I'm still trying to get back to Modes, HTBBS & Chord By Chord, BGIAB, Texas Hideout, etc, etc, etc,.

Y'all know what I'm talkin' about.

I can't keep up!!!!!:eek:

So that's where I'm headed now.

Oops!!!

It's right there in Section 6.

Ending #2: The "Full" Ending.
Ending #3: The "Half"Ending

Change my face from purple to a bright red.:rolleyes:
 
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Paleo

Student Of The Blues
So, just for the sake of completion:

In Section 6: Griff plays "our" ending as an Ellington ending and the Bassie ending pretty much as the "expert" discussed it. They are the same rhythmically and the names are interchangeable for our purposes..

He demonstrates as follows:

HTBBS It's Final.jpg
The only difference from the 8th rest-8th+quarter tie is that here the first 8th note in (). It's optional. You may get to it or not, but the band will have it covered.

And then he also plays it "straight". (Notice there is no swing notation. I think he calls it "Metric Modulation" or something like that.)

So, with his comments here from yesterday, all "mysteries" have been solved.

Sometimes I feel like I'm back in school working on my dissertation. This was a lot of work.

But well worth it for me, personally. I learned a lot.

Thanks to all who "chimed" in.

And especially DixiJohnson, who noticed something I never would have and brought it up in the first place.(y)
 
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