I-IV-V yes or no

Discussion in 'General Music & Guitar Learning' started by sdbrit68, Sep 8, 2019.

  1. JPsuff

    JPsuff Student Of The Blues

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    See, here's a thing about theory that makes it both maddening and leaves me with the feeling that much of it is created by people with way too much time on their hands.

    I'll use two songs to illustrate my point.

    The first song is "Baby I Love Your Way" by Peter Frampton and the other is "Over The Hills and Far Away" by Led Zeppelin.
    I enjoy playing both because they're great "noodlers". I love the progression of Frampton's tune and the complexity of what Page did with his.

    In Frampton's tune, it starts with a basic G chord and then adds a descending feel by next playing a D/F# and then to an Em and so on.
    The D/F# is a four-fingered chord with two 'open' strings and all six strings are played together.

    It's a simple chord, played mostly on the 2nd fret with a simple name: "D/F#" which is just your basic three-fingered D with an F# bass note added and its tab is: 2 0 0 2 3 2

    OK, so now let's look at a three-fingered chord (actually two chords because there's a slide to a resolve) in Zep's tune.
    It's played at the end of the 'skiffle' progression and it starts on the 1st and 3rd frets and resolves to the 3rd and 5th frets and then the progression repeats.

    The tabs for both are: X 1 3 0 3 0 (then slide to): X 3 5 0 5 0, they're both played on just five strings and all strings are sounded.

    But here's the thing.

    The first chord HAS EIGHTEEN FRIGGIN' NAMES!!! :confused::rolleyes:

    EIGHTEEN!!! :eek:

    For a three-fingered chord!

    I kid you not and here they are:

    A#6addb11add#11omit3 A# 6th Add Flat 11th Add Sharp 11th Omit 3rd
    A#6addb11addb5omit3 A# 6th Add Flat 11th Add Flat 5th Omit 3rd
    A#6add#11 A# 6th Add Sharp 11th
    A#6b5add5 A# 6th Flat 5th Add 5th
    F6sus2add14add11/A# F/A# 6th Suspended 2nd Add 14th Add 11th
    F6sus2sus4add14/A# F/A# 6th Suspended 2nd Suspended 4th Add 14th
    FM11sus2add6/A# F/A# Major 11th Suspended 2nd Add 6th
    FM7sus2sus4add6/A# F/A# Major 7th Suspended 2nd Suspended 4th Add 6th
    G6add#9add#13omit3/A# G/A# 6th Add Sharp 9th Add Sharp 13th Omit 3rd
    G7#9add6omit3/A# G/A# 7th Sharp 9th Add 6th Omit 3rd
    Gm6add#13/A# G/A# Minor 6th Add Sharp 13th
    Gm7add6/A# G/A# Minor 7th Add 6th
    Dsus2#5add#9add11/A# D/A# Suspended 2nd Sharp 5th Add Sharp 9th Add 11th
    Dsus2sus4#5add#9/A# D/A# Suspended 2nd Suspended 4th Sharp 5th Add Sharp 9th
    Dm#5add2add11/A# D/A# Minor Sharp 5th Add 2nd Add 11th
    Dsus2sus4#5addb3/A# D/A# Suspended 2nd Suspended 4th Sharp 5th Add Flat 3rd
    Edimaddb2add#13/A# E/A# Diminished Add Flat 2nd Add Sharp 13th
    Em7b5addb2/A# E/A# Minor 7th Flat 5th Add Flat 2nd

    Mercifully, the second chord (still just the same three fingers except three frets up) manages to get by with only three names:

    C C Major
    G6sus4/C G/C 6th Suspended 4th
    Em#5/C E/C Minor Sharp 5th

    So why is it that a four-fingered chord played over six strings can have one simple and effectively descriptive name while two, three-fingered chords, share TWENTY ONE names between them???

    Who invents this bullshit? o_O
    I mean, were the people who think this stuff up regularly duct-taped to their gym lockers back in High School, or what?
    Do they have some kind of axe to grind with the rest of us?

    Seriously --- why does ANY guitar chord "need" to have EIGHTEEN NAMES?
    I honestly can't think of anything on this planet that would require that kind of nomenclature.

    (and then people wonder why so many other people don't care for theory)

    Jeez Louise!


     
  2. MarkDyson

    MarkDyson Blues Hound Wannabe

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    3673A19C-DBEB-4338-A2E6-DF8F18BA9F57.jpeg
     
  3. Jalapeno

    Jalapeno Southeastern Michigan

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    You are Papa to your child.
    You are Husband to your wife.
    You are Brother to your sibling.
    You are Son to your parent.
    You are Grandpa to your grand child.
    You are Grandson to your grand parent.
    You are Mister to the kid at the bus stop.
    You are Teacher to your pupil.
    You are Student to your teacher.
    You are...

    Why? Context is everything. Chords are not the isolated "grips" that novice guitarists think they are. They exist in a musical context. It isn't BS. Unless, of course, you think it is, and then it is. :Beer:

    Eric
     
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  4. JPsuff

    JPsuff Student Of The Blues

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    Or I could just be John and that would pretty much cover everthing. :rolleyes:
     
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  5. Jalapeno

    Jalapeno Southeastern Michigan

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    If you say so.
     
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  6. david moon

    david moon Attempting the Blues

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    The first one I would call a Bb6. For the open G string. But you have the first string open which would be a major 7. Are you aure all those notes are sounding?

    The next is more of a C power chord.
     
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  7. david moon

    david moon Attempting the Blues

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    Interesting that none of the responses use Bb instead if A#. Theyt haven't obviously been around real music
     
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  8. Paleo

    Paleo There's a root for everyone

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    I don't think you seriously really want an answer. Within the contexts of the songs you've presented, none of them do have 18 names.


    Your first chord is simply a D Major chord: D F# A : (F# A D A D F#)

    D/F# just shows a first inversion, i.e. F# is in the bass. It's a 6 note chord, even though you only use 4 fingers.


    The second chord in your second example is simply a C Major chord: C E G : (X C G G E E)

    It's a 5 note chord (3 unique), even though you only use 3 fingers. This chord uses the open G & E strings to "double" those 2 notes, which are also the unisons we use for relative tuning. (C power chord shape with pinky added on 2nd string E, with open G and E strings or C7 barre chord shape with open G &E).

    The number of fingers you use has nothing to do with anything. It's the number of unique notes that define a chord.

    When you move this down to Bb you have a Bb power chord shape with your pinky on the D on the second string (or Bb7 barre chord shape), while still leaving that G and E string open. X Bb F G D E.

    The progression is a cool open string kind of sound between a C Major and Bb Major chord , but leaving the G and E strings open complicates the naming of the Bb "open" chord.

    Rearranging with G in the bass, you could spell the Bb chord: G Bb D E F, which would be a Gm7/add 6. If you put any of the other notes in the bass the chord would be spelled differently. We usually name chords by the order we stack notes atop each other. Thus the multitude of chord names when rearranging the notes. (5 x 4 x 3 x 2 possibilities, if you could finger them all.)

    However, in the context presented here in the Zep progression there would be no reason to put any notes other than the Bb in the bass of the 1st chord and the C in the bass of the second. Which would eliminate 14 of the possible names you've presented for the Bb chord and 2 of the names you've presented for the C Major chord.

    Actually it would eliminate all the names presented for the Bb chord since calling the Bb an A# would make no sense. Calling the chord a Bb6add#11 would. The open G string is the 6 and the open E is a #4 = #11: Bb D F G E = 1 3 5 6 #11

    Both of these chords having the same 2 open strings in common are 5 note chords played with 3 fingers.

    Comparing the number of fingers you use to play these chords is not inversely proportional to the number of chord names, as you have suggested.

    The number of different unique notes in a chord is directly proportional to the number of possible chord names when taken out of context.

    In the contexts presented I see only 3 chords: D/F#, C and Bb6add#11.

    The Bb6add#11 is just the result of moving the "open" C chord down to an "open" Bb chord on the guitar because it sounds cool.
     
    #48 Paleo, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019 at 6:50 AM
  9. Crossroads

    Crossroads Thump the Bottom

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    They say a picture is worth 1000 words.

    So maybe chord diagrams or tablature are worth 18 chord names?

    Here’s to the guys that got us off the staff!

    Five lines for six strings? Poppycock!
     
    #49 Crossroads, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
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  10. Paleo

    Paleo There's a root for everyone

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    Actually the first use of tab for the guitar predates the notes on the staff.:cool:
     
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  11. Paleo

    Paleo There's a root for everyone

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    Essentially agreed. Good job.

    Adding to yours and summarizing my rather lengthy analysis (?) from above:

    The E on top of the Bb6 (Bb F G D E) is actually a #4 (Eb--->E) or #11, so I would call it a Bb6add#11. (Bb D F G E = 1 3 5 6 #11)

    The C chord has the 3rd (C G G E E) so I'd just call it a good ol' C Major chord, noting that the G and E unisons wouldn't be possible on other instruments.:sneaky:

    You're basically just moving back and forth between a Bb triad (Bb F D) and a C triad (C G E) on the 5th, 4th & 2nd strings, while keeping the G and E strings open.

    Pretty simple, really. But very cool.


    And (@JPsuff ) something I just now realized, but should have earlier due to the #4. (Imagine me sitting here slapping my forehead, doh!):

    Bb C D E F G A = Lydian Mode, which is also suggested by the 2 Major chords Bb and C a whole step apart, the IV and V chord in the Key of F Major. Boing!!!!

    Bb to C is a I-II progression in Bb Lydian.

    Woo hoo!!! I love it when it all comes together.
     
    #51 Paleo, Sep 12, 2019 at 7:34 AM
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019 at 9:18 AM
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  12. sdbrit68

    sdbrit68 Student Of The Blues

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    now my head hurts
     
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  13. Paleo

    Paleo There's a root for everyone

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    Video version coming soon to a theater near you.
     
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  14. JPsuff

    JPsuff Student Of The Blues

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    Basically, it's like this:

    bugsbunny20cents.jpg


    Simple, right?
     
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  15. Paleo

    Paleo There's a root for everyone

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    #55 Paleo, Sep 12, 2019 at 1:02 PM
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019 at 8:11 AM
  16. Danno

    Danno Blues Newbie

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    Picking at nits here I know, but I didn't think you could have a chord like FM7sus2sus4add6/A# F/A# Major 7th Suspended 2nd Suspended 4th Add 6th. I thought a sus chord replaced the third with either the second (sus2) or the fourth (sus4). So how could you have a Major sus chord if you don't have a third? Also how can you have a sus2 and sus4 in the same chord?
     
  17. paparaptor

    paparaptor Central Scrutinizer
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    You can't have a major chord with a sus(anything). The indication of the FM7 refers to a Major 7 (not flatted), not an F Major chord. The sus2 replaces the major third (as would the sus4 if it were alone).
     
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  18. Danno

    Danno Blues Newbie

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    Ahh, gotcha. Would that also explain the “add 6” rather than calling it a 13 since it doesn’t have a third?

    Actually, I thinks that’s why it’s sus2 and sus4 too. With a third that would be an FMaj13.
     
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  19. CaptainMoto

    CaptainMoto Blues Voyager

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  20. david moon

    david moon Attempting the Blues

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    Duh, I don't know where I came up with the major 7. If Bb is the root, Eb is the 4 and E is #4 or add 7 for a #11. Although the "altered" chords are usually on top of a dom 7, and I don't see that here. But now I see you called it add #11. Maybe it's one of those things that breaks all the rules and still works. A little passing dissonance never hurt.