Hello. Do we have something against G?

Discussion in '52 Rhythm Fills & Variations' started by RobertKellman, Oct 13, 2020.

  1. RobertKellman

    RobertKellman Blues Newbie

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    I just got this course and, as I usually do, I went through the lessons quickly to see what's in there that don't know and just get a "lay of the land". I don't see much in G at all. In fact Griff, (if you're listening), you actually said that we should maybe just be down with playing in E or A because most blues is in those keys. OK. Granted. But you don't have to do just that shuffle stuff - fills that sort of bounce from G to C to D, (and we don't get very deep into A to B or E to B in here i.e. the V chord- please point it out if I've missed it early), are pretty easy to do with hammers and pulls, - bluegrass is built on those changes and if you just slow them down, those changes work in blues/rock. That's what country-rock/country blues is, no? Have i just missed it? Perhaps Griff has put some of this stuff in those lessons that appear in my inbox. If so, please lmk where to find them. I'll freely admit that I haven't gone through this exhaustively yet, but I did spend over an hour on the show blues and about an hour on the other 2, (which seem to ignore the bottom 2 strings, (which I love to honk on...). Sorry if this have been brought up before. An inability to go through a forum post by post is one of my character flaws... Not lazy - just impatient.

    By way of introduction, I'm an old guy, (over 70 will do...), with a spinal injury that's caused what amounts to phantom pain in my hands. I was/am a hobby guitar player. I jammed with friends. Haven't been in a band in decades. About 6 years ago I thought I should put the guitar down. It was drag to pick up something for fun and hurt myself. I've recently adjusted my mindset and dragged out my rig and axe(s), because I just love guitar. But, I'm not going to be able to toss out flashy licks and I was never even into shredding to listen to, let alone play. I just want to get to be a good second guy playing blues, country rock and rock & roll. That's why I was drawn to this course. Obviously, many here have forgotten more than I ever knew about this instrument - [and it seems that I might have forgotten more than I ever knew about it as well... it's like starting from scratch - which I guess at least has the virtue of losing bad habits...] - but I seem to recall playing in G & C alot and that the rhythm fills for those keys were both easy (for hands of any age), and fun plus they sounded good too. Am I in the wrong place? Should I be trading the course in for another? Or am I in for a "DUH" moment where 15 members point out the obvious thing I've missed? I'm hoping for the latter. Unlike some in my age group, I love all the help I can get, even when it makes me look bad...

    Thanks.
     
  2. Silicon Valley Tom

    Silicon Valley Tom It makes me happpy to play The Blues!

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    I enjoy using software (TablEdit in my case) to transpose music I enjoy to different keys. When it comes to lessons, everyone seems to teach a specific lesson in one key. That is where you can decide if you like it, and with a bit of work, play it in the key you wish.

    First I would suggest you learn in the original key, and then decide where it belongs within your repertoire. Then you can get serious. You can get software to change the key of backing tracks, should that be necessary.

    You are in charge and the path you take is up to you. Most of all, enjoy yourself! :):cool:

    Tom
     
  3. Zzzen Dog

    Zzzen Dog Blues Junior

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    The entirety of section 1 focuses on open position blues shuffles, so yeah... E and A. Most of that is easily transposable, to other positions. Section 2 introduces a lot of stuff in G, and again the E and A stuff is pretty easily transposable. Section 3 G and adds C.

    I'm not sure but also thinking you're asking why is it all standard 12 bar blues. Because that's 90% of what gets played... and he's also got other courses that have material that look at 8 bar blues, minor blues, jazzier progressions.

    This course it designed to get more ideas about filling space, other than just the shuffle. Easiest to teach that stuff over what's relatively well known.
     
  4. snarf

    snarf musician wannabe

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    I'm not totally sure that I understand your question, but I'm going to give it a stab anyways. If it helps, I'm glad. If it doesn't, I'm sure someone else will be along soon enough to give a better answer.

    Griff teaches the blues by primarily teaching you to play in and around what is commonly accepted as the blues song form. There is a lot of music out there that is called blues, but the blues form is a specific thing. That form is 12 bars and predominately played in one of a couple of variations (regular or quick change) and very often it's a shuffle feel. Most of what Griff's catalog teaches is built around that form.

    While the 52RFV course is a great course, it's made to be used by those familiar with those forms, but the ideas can be played in a whole lot more than just blues. The idea that Griff has mentioned in the past is that he wants us to learn a lick or rhythm idea, and once you learn it, to move it around where ever you need it. You learn that lick in Box 1 in the key of A. The song changes to the key of C? No problem, you play the same lick in Box 1 for the key of C. You learn the lick, and then, no matter what key you're in, you play the lick in the box that you learned it for that key. They'll work anywhere like that.

    You mention the keys of E and A. A lot of blues is played in either E or A. I don't recall hearing Griff mention that we should be happy with playing in just those keys, but, in my head, it's not really different than bluegrass in that respect. I played a LOT of bluegrass back when I was a kid. We played everything in either G, C, or D. Singer wanted to sing the song in the key of B? Cool...capo III and play it as if you're playing in G. I joked that, back then, I only knew 5 chords but could play any song in any key because I could play it in G and had a capo in my pocket.

    Is 52RFV your first course or what other ones have you taken from Griff's catalog? If it's your first and you're comfortable with the fingerings and playing what's in it, I'd put it down and spend some time with BGU2. It's Griff's flagship course, and all the other courses came after that one. Truth is, a lot of the rhythm ideas in 52RFV are in BGU with a little more context on how and why they work. If you want to stick with 52RFV but look at something other than a shuffle feel, then take a look at the last section in the book where some other ideas are covered.
     
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  5. Elwood

    Elwood "Skinny"

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    I believe that Griff's material provides more than enough to keep (at least most of) us very busy and happy that we have six strings. All the patterns, chords, and song structures are based on a six sting guitar.
    What you may be seeing, especially if you are just jumping in, is that Griff also teaches the value of "little chords" that use only two or three chord tones to carry the chord (this is wonderful, and necessary for quick inversions right?) and Griff, being a performing and recording player as well as a teacher has found that to "get over" in the mix he can "say what he wants" and be heard by focusing on those four treble strings for solo work.

    I play for the dogs and they (used to) have good hearing, so I enjoy using the bass strings in solos also. On acoustic all six are necessary, and on acoustic Griff teaches six as well too. I think once I figure out how to play I'll play in any key I want.

    Guys, feel free to correct me...

    You go on and do what you want but if you take a little time I think you will find way more here than you think. Griff teaches specifics sure, but there are concepts in there that are musically useful...even if a guy had a squeeze box or a b**jo. Different folks here like different tunes, that's how I like it. A bunch of folks here have a few miles on 'em and have a few nicks too, you won't get all the credit for that here, but that don't matter either. I'm sure we already have lookin bad covered too, not about that either. It's about playing something that makes you feel good, that was out of reach not too long ago, and seeing that in others.

    We all want to play better and enjoy trying and helping each other. If you decide this sounds interesting let me join the others in welcoming you!
     
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  6. Paleo

    Paleo Theory, Licks, Solos

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    Number of complete 12 bar examples by key:

    C - 1
    A - 1
    Am - 2
    E - 3
    G - 8

    Number of complete 3 chorus, 36 bar examples:

    G - 1

    Plus:

    8 bar blues in C
    Circle of 4ths in C
    2nd line feel in A
     
    #6 Paleo, Oct 13, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
  7. RobertKellman

    RobertKellman Blues Newbie

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    Are we talkin the same course here? I'm looking at riff after riff in E. Way more than 3 to be sure? Are you talking Blues Guitar Unleashed? I thought that I was posting to the Rhythm Riff Forum? If I'm in the wrong place, please point me. If not, well as the Bossman said in Cool Hand Luke, "What we have heya is a failya to communicate..."
     
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  8. Silicon Valley Tom

    Silicon Valley Tom It makes me happpy to play The Blues!

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    You make an excellent point! :) I do see E, A and G. :whistle: But I happen to really enjoy B and B minor! :cry: Oh well. :( I am back to transposing. :cool:

    Tom
     
  9. snarf

    snarf musician wannabe

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    That may be the key. You posted in the 52 Rhythm Fills and Variations section of the forum. That's not really a sub-forum for talking about any and all rhythm playing. That's the title of one of Griff's smaller courses, so the answers so far have been from the perspective that you are working your way through that course. If you're actually working through Blues Guitar Unleashed (BGU), then you might want to post here instead. That's the place for general questions in regards to that course.

    If you take a look at forum, and you'll see it's broken up a bit. Sometimes it can be confusing to find the best spot to post your question, but, if you manage to get it there, the answers will usually be quicker and better. So here's a quick forum-guide for you. You'll see it broken up into Sub-forums as follows:
    • General Category: Where we talk about everything that's not necessarily related to a course. You'll see sub-forums in it for Gear, Theory, Introductions, Song Writing, Jams, and just shooting the breeze (The Lounge).
    • Blues Guitar Unleashed: For the BGU and BGU2 courses. Sub-forums there are for General BGU questions or questions about specific lessons. As well, a lot of what gets posted in the specific lesson sub-forums is where someone will record their progress and solicit feedback from fellow members.
    • Acoustic Blues Guitar Unleashed: For the ABGU course. Set up a little different than the BGU sub-forums. There is a section for ABGU questions, a section for ABGU recordings, and a section for the Delta Blues Slide Course, which is a smaller course that covers some slide, but is geared around acoustic guitar so is placed in this section.
    • Beginning Blues Guitar: I've never worked through this course to be certain, but I believe that it has the BBG questions sub-forum as well as sub-forums for the 3 solos in it. Don't quote me on that though.
    • Classic Rock Guitar Unleashed: Two sub-forums on this one. CRGU questions and CRGU recordings that others have posted.
    • Strumming and Rhythm Mastery: One sub-forum in this one. It's labeled questions, but you can post whatever you want related to this course in it.
    • All Access Pass*: If you're an All Access Pass member, you'll see this one. Two sub-forums here. One is for giving suggestions on what to be covered in the monthly AAP sessions, and the other is for talking about the live sessions and posting something you've played for a Fix-It session.
    • Smaller Courses: All the rest of the smaller courses that Griff has produced. Those of us that have been around a while tend to just use acronyms instead of writing them out. There are sub-forums here for HTIBS, both BSCK courses in one sub-forum, SWS, CAGED, both BGIAB courses in one sub-forum, 52RFV (where you posted), 5EBS, 5MEBS, PSTM, SBS, the courses Griff has worked with Steve T and Bob M to make available to us (although I'm not sure if he still sells those), and then a sub-forum called Everything Else for all the other small courses just kind of bundled and thrown into a forum together.
    • Recording Info and Member Recordings: A sub-forum for everyone to record whatever they want and post it. I think there is a sub-forum on the basics of recording yourself (the hows). The big sub-forum down there is the Virtual Jam Room (the VJR). That's where a lot of members get together and take turns recording over a s single track, each getting a chance to solo. It's been a long time since I've contributed down there, but, when I have, it has been a LOT of fun.
    • BGU Labs*: Periodically Griff will do what he calls a challenge. It's where he takes a subject and folks can focus on it, with him for a month. There is a sub-forum here for talking about the current challenge as well as posting a recording of what you play during the challenge for feedback from both forum members and Griff.
    *If you're not an AAP member or have not participated in a monthly challenge, you may not see those sections of the forum.
     
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  10. Paleo

    Paleo Theory, Licks, Solos

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    Yes.

    There are 52 examples in the "52 Rhythm Fills & Variations" course.

    If you'd rather I break it down by number of examples in each key in each section:

    Section 1 : Open Position (If you only look at Section 1, yes, there's a lot of E variations.)

    E - 14 (including 1.17 & 1.20)
    A - 6

    Griff introduces the "basic" rhythm fill in E, then goes on to give variations on it.
    The examples in A are simply the E variations moved up a string to A.

    He does 2 complete 12 bar examples using all these variations, Ex. 1.17 & 1.20.
    He also discusses how to handle the V chord in these examples.

    There are moves you can make in E & A in "open position" that you wouldn't be able to do in other keys (without using a Capo).

    Section 2

    G - 12
    E - 4
    A - 2
    C - 1

    Section 3

    G - 5
    C - 3
    Am -3
    A - 1

    Section 4

    G - 1 (3 Compete Choruses)

    Totals overall :

    E - 18
    A - 9
    G - 18
    C - 4
    Am - 3

    Total = 52 Rhythm Fills & Variations

    I don't see "G" being ignored. :)




     
    #10 Paleo, Oct 14, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
  11. Paleo

    Paleo Theory, Licks, Solos

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    In my first reply I broke it down by "complete 12 bar examples":

    C - 1 : 3.6
    A - 1 : 2.19
    Am - 2 : 3.7, 3.8
    E - 3 : 1.17, 1.20, 2.18
    G - 8 : 2.1, 2.3, 2.5, 2.12, 3.1, 3.2, 3.3, 3.5

    Whether you count example by example or by complete 12 Bar chorus examples I can't see how Griff has anything against the key of G.

    E and A are conducive to playing in open position. Some of these examples simply aren't moveable.

    G is conducive to examples farther up the neck using chord "fragments", which are easily moveable to any other key.
     
    #11 Paleo, Oct 14, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
  12. MikeS

    MikeS Allen, TX
    Staff Member

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    I hope this helps. Others have said it above, but the simple straight forward fact is that Griff NEVER says "just play in E or A",
    What he DOES say is "here's a lick, or rhythm fill in key xyz. Learn it then move it to other keys.
    Anything that you learn in any key can be played in any other key. Let me know if I'm not addressing the issue clearly.
     
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  13. Paleo

    Paleo Theory, Licks, Solos

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    Just for the record.....

    Even though @RobertKellman and I are over 70, we both still know where we are. o_O
     
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