Does anyone else have this issue with playing electrics?

[Stanley]

I first started playing guitar back in 1972 while a sophomore in college. I only played acoustic for years, when I finally bought an electric I was a decent player but I simply could not play the electric. At all. no matter how carefully I tuned it. every chord sounded like total crap. so did single string runs. (It was a 70s reissue of a classic 50s Les Paul, damn I wish I'd held onto it nowadays)

Eventually I gave up on guitar completely after maybe 15 years of devoted constant practice. Even my own father, who never complimented me on anything I tried to do, said "no one can ever say you didn't try your best. I've never seen anyone work so hard at anything in my life." so at least I didn't beat myself up for my failure. I just realized, that I didn't have "it."

so flash forward to covid lockdown. retired, living alone... I decided to give it another shot. Just for my own amusement, even if I never got good enough to play in front of anyone.

I'm actually having a blast, and I've also already moved into playing both lap and bottleneck slide styles which was my original desire that drove me to start playing back in the day.

and by chance I discovered why electric guitars are unplayable, for me at least, well at least all 3 that I own. when you fret a string, particularly the high ones, the string bends over the fret and raises the tone up to a half step or more. I discovered this by playing a run and watching my digital tuner. hence any chord or run is way the hell out of tune, no matter how accurately you play it.

couple things come to mind. the frets are set too high. the strings are too light gauge. you have to play with the lightest of touches so that you never accidentally bend the string on the fret wire (is this even possible???) you have to play so you never press strings down to the wood and only touch the fret but don't buzz. yeah right. not gonna happen. and still jump around all over the stage and shit???

FYI, I paid for a professional setup on the first low end guitar, I bought, an Epiphone Les Paul. I also have a beautiful Gretsch semi-hollow I bought from a professional player, and a Parts Tele I got from my first music teacher who is a professional and built it and set it up. that one plays the best. at least on single string runs, but chords, sound horrible.

Help.
Thanks.

 

[CaptainMoto]

Hmm,
I don’t understand why that would only be an issue on electrics?
I know that I have a heavy grip so, I also can push the strings out of tune.
Most of my guitars have medium tall frets but, one has shorter frets and I don’t have that issue.
I do find myself pushing the strings against the fret board though.

 

[Elwood]

raises the tone up to a half step or more

That is a HUGE change! Way beyond what you would get by just "strangling" the guitar. Makes me wonder if Moto is on to something. Is it possible that you could be pushing the string/s laterally, up or down along the fret as well as down to the fingerboard. It would be interesting to see if you get the same results by being careful to 1) push the string to the fretboard only enough to get a clear, buzz free tone, and 2) watch carefully to assure you are not accidentally introducing the start of a string bend when you sound the notes.
I do know that, for instance, using a capo with too tight of a tension setting can squeeze a note sharp when they are clamped down, but even then only a "micro mini give a $***" Some of us are real picky about that sort of thing and so are real picky about the capo we choose.

 

[Stanley]

Hmm,
I don’t understand why that would only be an issue on electrics?
I know that so have a heavy grip so, I also can push the strings out of tune.
Most of my guitars have medium tall frets but, one has shorter frets and I don’t have that issue.
I do find myself pushing the strings against the fret board though.

I never understood why only electrics. I've played lots of both. Never a problem on acoustics. Always on electrics. It doesn't make sense at all.
Could be both string gauge and fret set depth. But why would electrics have higher frets and use lighter strings? Unless it's just bad series of coincidences that the instruments I handled did?
This is why I'm interested if others noticed this. I'm willing to use heavier strings, prefer them actually, but not willing to refret all my electrics. $$$!!!

SRV is well known to use heaviest gauge strings and tune low. Seems like a solution to my issue too.

 

[Stanley]

That is a HUGE change! Way beyond what you would get by just "strangling" the guitar. Makes me wonder if Moto is on to something. Is it possible that you could be pushing the string/s laterally, up or down along the fret as well as down to the fingerboard. It would be interesting to see if you get the same results by being careful to 1) push the string to the fretboard only enough to get a clear, buzz free tone, and 2) watch carefully to assure you are not accidentally introducing the start of a string bend when you sound the notes.
I do know that, for instance, using a capo with too tight of a tension setting can squeeze a note sharp when they are clamped down, but even then only a "micro mini give a $***" Some of us are real picky about that sort of thing and so are real picky about the capo we choose.

When I first realized what was happening, I spent several minutes carefully exerting pressure on the high E string, 3rd fret, watching from the side and picking repeatedly while watching the digital tuner as I watched the string bend over the fret. It stayed in tune only as it touched the fret. The faintest pressure more, not even to the wood, was noticeably out of tune. I always press finger string to the wood. I can't imagine not doing it or conversely never bending string down past fret height. I concluded it was not a playable instrument. And the pro I paid to set it up ripped me off.

 

[dvs]

You're not supposed to press the string to the wood, that's way too much! It just needs to touch the high fret lightly, and only enough so it rings out clearly without buzzing. If the guitar is well intonated, it will be in tune at that point. If you push it further, it will go sharp, that's just the physics of the situation - there's no way to keep that from happening.

My guitars all have medium-ish frets or thinner, but if I press it down as hard as I can, I can push a string sharp by a quarter step (and that hurts!). I can't get to a half step without bending, but if you have higher frets (jumbo or medium jumbo) maybe you can. A long time a go I switched from 9's to 10's because it seemed like I could play in tune better with the 10's. I soon got used to the 10s so I never tried going back to lighter strings, but I'm sure heavier strings make going out of tune like this less of a problem.

 

[Stanley]

You're not supposed to press the string to the wood, that's way too much! It just needs to touch the high fret lightly, and only enough so it rings out clearly without buzzing. If the guitar is well intonated, it will be in tune at that point. If you push it further, it will go sharp, that's just the physics of the situation - there's no way to keep that from happening.

My guitars all have medium-ish frets or thinner, but if I press it down as hard as I can, I can push a string sharp by a quarter step (and that hurts!). I can't get to a half step without bending, but if you have higher frets (jumbo or medium jumbo) maybe you can. A long time a go I switched from 9's to 10's because it seemed like I could play in tune better with the 10's. I soon got used to the 10s so I never tried going back to lighter strings, but I'm sure heavier strings make going out of tune like this less of a problem.

I was getting G# on E string 3rd fret with practically no pressure. I had to concentrate fiercely while fully aware of what I was doing and watching from the side to get a G just contacting the fret. It still went a touch sharp on the tuning app. Doing that without buzzing on 100s of notes simply does not seem possible, chords out of the question. I'm going to put 16s on one of them and see what happens. I use them on my Dobro.
Maybe I'll just focus on lap steel and give up regular style. LOL

 

[PapaRaptor]

I was getting G# on E string 3rd fret with practically no pressure. I had to concentrate fiercely while fully aware of what I was doing and watching from the side to get a G just contacting the fret. It still went a touch sharp on the tuning app. Doing that without buzzing on 100s of notes simply does not seem possible, chords out of the question. I'm going to put 16s on one of them and see what happens. I use them on my Dobro.
Maybe I'll just focus on lap steel and give up regular style. LOL

Either your guitar is badly intonated or your strings are high enough to drive a truck underneath. I just went through 5 guitars and pressing as hard as I can, I can only make the 3rd fret go about 15 cents sharp. My normal playing drops them squarely on pitch. I think you may need a refund on the setup you got.

Two guitars are 25 1/2" scale (Fenders) 1 25" scale (PRS), and two 24 3/4" scales (Gibsons). Fenders and PRS usng .009 strings. Gibsons using .010 strings.

 

[Stanley]

Thanks. I took it for setup after unboxing and trying to play. Didn't help one bit.
I think I'll have someone else check it out. Might be just junk beyond salvage.

I haven't tested the others, but I can hear they're going out of tune on most chords. I cant bear to even try to play after 5 minutes. Even my beautiful Gretsch

I'll try to concentrate on a lighter touch, plus heavier strings, plus setup check after asking around for who to take them to.

Again though, just strange that it's only on electrics. Any electrics I play. But never a problem on any acoustic. I have 6. Never even had any setup or adjusted. My Martin came setup of course. 3 Chinese imports, play beautifully out of the box. Never even changed strings. Cheapest of the cheap, a Rogue I started on, plays fine.

Just don't get it.

 

[BraylonJennings]

I agree with Lloyd, sounds like an intonation issue to me

 

[Silicon Valley Tom]

You pose an interesting observation. Fret height and size are a topic worthy of discussion. If you are new to electric guitar or play rhythm guitar for instance, small frets are a good way to go. If you like vibrato and bends, jumbo frets are best. Personally, I like medium jumbo frets, which I believe your guitar has.

The way I play is to press the tip of the finger on the fretboard close to the fret. It provides a correct tone. If you place the finger tip behind the fret towards the next lower fret, you will alter the tone (lower). That is a technique that can be used effectively if you wish.

Heavier strings may make vibrato and bends more difficult. You have to find a happy balance for your guitar and techniques. I have been playing nylon and steel string acoustics for over 70 years, and electrics for over 20 years. I have been playing Lap Steel for over 12 years.

Tom

 

[Liam]

@Stanley I will agree with the above suggestions from others. I will not agree with your decision to go to 16s on an electric. That would be like trying to fret bailing wire on a fine instrument. The combination would make your fingers so sore after 5 minutes of playing, you would have to take a week off to get over the pain.

Now with that said. Let me make sure I understand your tuner. Does it indicate only full notes and not "CENTS". If it does show cents, try this. Tune the High E (1st string) to approximately 10 cents lower pitch rather than right on the money pitch wise. Then place your fretting finger as close to the 3rd fret as possible without being directly on top of the fret. Strike the High E string as gently as you can with an upstroke of the pick and note the pitch change if any.

If you can fret in the manner described above, and the pitch doesn't go up more than 1 or 2 cents, Congrats, you have just discovered why you are raising the pitch excessively. Technique is important on electrics with lighter gauge strings. Of the 3 electrics I play, 2 have 9s and one has 10s. I am so accustomed to the 9s that when I play the one with 10s I immediately can tell the difference when doing string bends on the 1, 2, and 3 strings.

As others have pointed out, if you do not know how to check INTONATION, search online for the brand and model of each electric for how to check intonation. If you are comfortable with adjusting intonation, should one or all require doing so, then after completing the process, re-check your fretting technique for any changes...

Hope this helps. Oh, BTW, I started on a lap steel in the mid 50s. Gave it up for Band and gave up band for sports in freshman year and afterwards until 2 years after graduating hi school. So, keep plugging away and find a solution to your issue.

 

[Stanley]

Thanks. I'll try that.

 

[sdbrit68]

Something don't sound correct, now me, have an issue with acoustics, mainly because on acoustic I love to play 80's stuff so I bang the snot out of it and treat it like a Les Paul, the total weird thing, I play my Les Paul with a softer hand.

My set up's, they don.t bend out of tune unless I mean too....................I ma thinking one of two things fro your statements.

1) "Any electrics I play. But never a problem on any acoustic. I have 6. Never even had any setup or adjusted. " - I am thinking maybe, you have gotten so used to really having to muscle the strings on the acoustic, that you have just built up a tendency to use a sledgehammer on a thumbtack. I have one acoustic with high strings, its a cheapie I left like that on purpose. I use it for finger strength work because of arthritis issues.

or

2) " I was doing and watching from the side to get a G just contacting the fret. It still went a touch sharp on the tuning app "- None, and I mean none of my guitars take any concentration to get a proper note out of them where I would need to carefully watch it and a tuning app. I have had absolute beginners try my guitars, I do this so they can see the value in a good set up.
This kind of leads to the question, have you tried a different tuner ? I know for a fact, my Korg black out is different than my headrush which is different from the clip on slightly. Heck I have seen two boss tuner pedals read slightly different.

If not, as someone mentioned, the set up would be questionable. I have 40 some guitars, even with weather changes, they don't go that far out of tune, even the ones I rarely play, and playing them, even hard, they hold pretty well

 

[Stanley]

Good morning folks.

So this morning I pulled the Epiphone LP SL out and checked again. A half step appears to be an exaggeration, but I do recall it going from G to G# on the screen back when. I'm using an app on my phone, so maybe not super accurate. But even an untrained ear can easily hear the difference.
Light pressure on E string 3rd fret could go to 15c if I wasn't careful 28-35c if I pressed harder than normal to the wood. Turns out I wasn't pressing to wood at my normal pressure but still you could hear and see the strings bend down and up in tone as I fingered simple chords.

The 2nd fret was much worse. Across all strings. Am chord made me start cussing. I that chord. In so many songs I like to play...
Cmaj was ugh as was Gmaj. I recorded the tests, planning to upload, but I started screaming F bombs and wanted to smash it against the wall.

Whatever the cause or fault, I simply cannot play these things. I have to let go that dream. It blows my mind because millions can and do. From blues to rock to country to rockabilly, but not me. WTF?

Anyway I've got plenty of acoustic and square neck slide alternatives that sound and play fantastic.

Thanks for all your input.
Frustrated as hell.

 

[sdbrit68]

Huh, now this is interesting.......................couple of quick questions.

1) Fingering - you mentioned a C and you mentioned an Am. Are you playing open Cowboy Chords, or are you playing barre chords or another inversion ?

2) The reason I asked about tuners, back when I would still buy Boss products, I had one that would tune so far out, cats in another country would agonize in pain (It's why I no longer buy Boss after the customer service)

3) Have you had someone else play them ? No disrespect intended, but, just to narrow down if it is the instrument, or user. I have a 9mm, I can hit dead center all day, but the reality is I have adjusted to the weapon, anyone else uses it, they can't hit a bus, so the human factor comes in

 

[Liam]

@sdbrit68 on the 9mm. User intervention is absolute and most folks are unaware or not properly trained in the proper use of such objects...

I had a similar experience with one of mine until I was made aware of the type of sights incorporated. Made a huge impact (pun intended) on placement.

 

[Liam]

@Stanley do you have a way to do a close up video of how you are fretting strings? If you could record yourself playing a few notes, chords or even a few bars of chord progression it may possibly give BGUers a better understanding of the issue.

Also, did you have an opportunity to check INTONATION. If you are not familar with the proper way to check it, do an online search for how to check intaonation. Then report the results. That may alos help with determining the cause of the issue...

Please reply with the outcome...

 

[Stanley]

Huh, now this is interesting.......................couple of quick questions.

1) Fingering - you mentioned a C and you mentioned an Am. Are you playing open Cowboy Chords, or are you playing barre chords or another inversion ?

2) The reason I asked about tuners, back when I would still buy Boss products, I had one that would tune so far out, cats in another country would agonize in pain (It's why I no longer buy Boss after the customer service)

3) Have you had someone else play them ? No disrespect intended, but, just to narrow down if it is the instrument, or user. I have a 9mm, I can hit dead center all day, but the reality is I have adjusted to the weapon, anyone else uses it, they can't hit a bus, so the human factor comes in

Oh it's just me. I know and admit that. Millions of people play electrics just fine. That's why I phrased the original question asking if anyone else had this issue.
I have had other people play them and sound fine. Blows my mind.
I remember when I got my 1st 70s Gibson LP in early 80s and it sounded horrible, but I sounded fine on my acoustic. I happened to run into Jeff Foskett that night (name drop, became Beach Boys guitarist, local Santa Barbara guy, terrific nice guy too) and invited him to check it out. To my surprise he showed up the next morning. He shredded. "Nice guitar" he smiled. I took it, strummed a few open chords, it sounded like shit, and I asked him "why does it sound like shit for me?" He just shrugged. I pretty much never played it again. $300 bucks down the tubes. I think I eventually got $100 for it selling it back to same shop.
I probably quit and sold everything a couple years later.

BTW re chords. I can't play barre chords very well on any guitar. My index finger simply won't lay flat. Griffs lesson on it helps, doing partials can work sometimes but I avoid them. They always sound shitty for me. I've spent millions of hours to no avail. The best results are holding guitar in classical position almost vertical. I do play them better on electrics oddly enough. (Narrower neck, lower action, lighter strings, but then the de-tune effect can show up) How in the world do all those rockers who hold their guitars at full arms length, horizontal, way down across their thighs above their knees do it, and playing only barre chords? Do they have their wrists surgically altered? Freakishly long index fingers with an extra joint?

Maybe I should just give up. Again.

Sorry for my tendency to ramble on. I'm 70, live alone, no kids or family, or friends, retired, haven't talked or socialized or had contact with people for years. Covid shutdowns didn't effect me at all. All I do is sleep, and try to play guitar. Before I started trying to play again, all I did was sleep. That gave me a reason to get up in the morning, excited to play. This convo has pretty much terminated all desire.
Hopefully that depression passes...

 

[sdbrit68]

If you are in California, you should come to the next socal jam, those guys helped me get better