Counting

[Elio]

Hard to respond without stating the obvious - that a mouthpiece pressed to the lips requires other methods. Such as getting the beat internalized before starting to play. Sort of like visualizing hitting a drum pad on the beat.

Most of my inaccuracies are not caused by missing the beat. It’s from missing the right note, hitting too many strings, or late on quickening chord changes. I did count out loud on one part of the strumming exercises but no longer feel the need to do so.

To quote John Nemeth: if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

BTW: “Too many Dirty Dishes” is one of my favorites. Pots and pans everywhere.

I think that was my point regarding the trumpet -- you can't count if your mouth is otherwise occupied. I run into this when I learn something new on harmonica. I had a similar experience of learning clarinet as a kid, where out loud counting wasn't really an option. Consequently, I always relied on external sources like a metronome, drummer, or conductor. When counting, you have to rely on yourself. Tapping your foot will keep the tempo, but you won't necessarily know where you are at any point, especially if when the timing is something other than 4/4 or involves triplets.

I really fought it playing guitar both when I learned as a teenager, and again when I took it more seriously as an adult. It took a couple of personal sessions with @Griff to force me to zero in on some of my problem areas by counting through them, even though I thought I already had the correct timing. Once I did that, many of the other miscellaneous mistakes from wrong notes and strings quickly resolved themselves as my confidence level increased. While I don't need to keep counting after having it internalized, I find that the quickest way to remember a particular passage is to simply start the count, and it all comes back to me.

If someone has internalized the beat for something they already know and can they can play that piece competently, it makes sense not to fix something that ain't broke. For someone starting out, I would argue that counting it out is one of the best ways to internalize the beat at a much deeper level. Being able to count it out loud while playing really requires one to develop a deeper level of mastery that, at least in my case I seem less likely to forget over time. It's like anything else that seems hard and unnatural. While there is a cost of time and effort to learn it, there is also a payoff because you need to engage at a deeper level. There is actually a fair amount published in the music education literature about this.

Time to go count those dirty dishes now...

 

[ScottMFL]

We may have discovered your problem with counting, I'm pretty sure that's two things

Not sure why it is that you think there is a problem with my counting. Pretty sure the point within my post was with the challenges of trying to learn two (or more) skills simultaneously. At least it is for me.

My favorite Dirty Harry quote (from Magnum Force) is " A man's got to know his limitations". One of mine is taking on too much at once. Basic "know thyself" stuff.

Somewhere I have an email from Griff on the subject of using focus to get better. Seems like that is exactly what I am doing by deploying the LHMP approach that Paleo posted above.

Trying to better understand your comment so that I can post the next time with more clarity.

 

[Elio]

It would also be quite difficult to count out loud while you're singing.

And it would be interesting to go to the symphony and hear everybody in the orchestra counting out loud during a performance.

I think the idea is to count out loud while "learning" the music, not necessarily while "performing" it . With that said, an old friend of mine is an accomplished jazz guitarist and music professor. He was recently telling me about a concert he played with a bass player who is well-known in his circles. At one point during a particularly fast and complex piece, he happened to look over to the bass player to see him mouthing the count to himself as he was playing. Professionals also sometimes count!

 

[Elio]

Not sure why it is that you think there is a problem with my counting. Pretty sure the point within my post was with the challenges of trying to learn two (or more) skills simultaneously. At least it is for me.

My favorite Dirty Harry quote (from Magnum Force) is " A man's got to know his limitations". One of mine is taking on too much at once. Basic "know thyself" stuff.

Somewhere I have an email from Griff on the subject of using focus to get better. Seems like that is exactly what I am doing by deploying the LHMP approach that Paleo posted above.

Trying to better understand your comment so that I can post the next time with more clarity.

I think that was Crossroads' attempt at humor: dividing + conquering = 2

 

[ScottMFL]

I think that was my point regarding the trumpet -- you can't count if your mouth is otherwise occupied. I run into this when I learn something new on harmonica. I had a similar experience of learning clarinet as a kid, where out loud counting wasn't really an option. Consequently, I always relied on external sources like a metronome, drummer, or conductor. When counting, you have to rely on yourself. Tapping your foot will keep the tempo, but you won't necessarily know where you are at any point, especially if when the timing is something other than 4/4 or involves triplets.

I really fought it playing guitar both when I learned as a teenager, and again when I took it more seriously as an adult. It took a couple of personal sessions with @Griff to force me to zero in on some of my problem areas by counting through them, even though I thought I already had the correct timing. Once I did that, many of the other miscellaneous mistakes from wrong notes and strings quickly resolved themselves as my confidence level increased. While I don't need to keep counting after having it internalized, I find that the quickest way to remember a particular passage is to simply start the count, and it all comes back to me.

If someone has internalized the beat for something they already know and can they can play that piece competently, it makes sense not to fix something that ain't broke. For someone starting out, I would argue that counting it out is one of the best ways to get internalize the beat at a much deeper level. Being able to count it out loud while playing really requires one to develop a deeper level of mastery that, at least in my case I seem less likely to forget over time. It's like anything else that seems hard and unnatural. While there is a cost of time and effort to learn it, there is also a payoff because you need to engage at a deeper level. There is actually a fair amount published in the music education literature about this.

Time to go count those dirty dishes now...

Agree. That is how I learned when first exposed to music. First by counting out loud, then advancing to tapping the foot to the beat. Get that internal clock in proper rhythm. Heck, I even repurposed by brothers drum pad to make sure that I could (literally) hit the timing of the notes correctly. Whatever it took.

Great discussion. Time to go make some dirty dishes. Maybe one day I'll be able to play some Albert Collins.

 

[ScottMFL]

I think that was Crossroads attempt at humor: dividing + conquering = 2

Got it. Missed the inferred smiley face.

 

[Elio]

Got it. Missed the inferred smiley face.

Yep, a lot gets lost in online communication!

 

[Paleo]

I'm not trying to be argumentative or tell others what to do. I just follow Griff's advice.

Count when you need to and don't when you don't.

It's up to each individual to be honest with themselves and know when they need to and when they don't.

If I can play something in time, I'm not going back and count it out load just for the sake of doing so.

If I was helping someone else with their timing, I would.

And if I was messing it up I would, as well.

(And if Griff was telling me I was messing it up, I definitely would.)

I just watched Griff's 4 Note Solo lesson and, as always, he says that if you are struggling count it out load and it will always fix the problem.

I've never heard him say you should always be counting out load.

I'll repost this link where Griff describes the 2 occasions when he counts while playing.

https://bluesguitarunleashed.com/blog/counting-vs-feeling/

And a direct quote from that blog post:

"The goal of counting is to not need to count anymore....."

For a beginner who is just starting to learn about rhythm, the "need" will most likely be "all the time."

But not forever.

 

[Elio]

I'm not trying to be argumentative or tell others what to do. I just follow Griff's advice.

Count when you need to and don't when you don't.

It's up to each individual to be honest with themselves and know when they need to and when they don't.

If I can play something in time, I'm not going back and count it out load just for the sake of doing so.

If I was helping someone else with their timing, I would.

And if I was messing it up I would, as well.

I just watched Griff's 4 Note Solo lesson and, as always, he says that if you are struggling count it out load and it will always fix the problem.

I've never heard him say you should always be counting out load.

I'll repost this link where Griff describes the 2 occasions when he counts while playing.

https://bluesguitarunleashed.com/blog/counting-vs-feeling/

And a direct quote from that blog post:

"The goal of counting is to not need to count anymore....."

For a beginner who is just starting to learn about rhythm, the "need" will most likely be "all the time."

But not forever.

I don't think we disagree. I interpret "the goal is not to count anymore" to be for a given piece of music. Not everything requires counting. But, for many players, regardless of their experience level, it can be the must effective easy to learn something new when there is unusual or complex timing.

What I see is that the "ability" to count tends to reduce the "need" to count. The best players i know can count something out loud upon request, even if they have never done it out loud before. They are already internally counting, although without as much conscious attention to the task.

 

[Crossroads]

Got it. Missed the inferred smiley face.

While I can enter emoticons on my Android phone when I hit save they never save. And that is @paparaptor 's fault cuz he refuses to fix it.

And please don't take anything I say seriously, because I never do.

 

[Crossroads]

While I can enter emoticons on my Android phone when I hit save they never save. And that is @paparaptor 's fault cuz he refuses to fix it.

Please don't take anything I say seriously, because I never do.

Now that is totally whack I said smiley face thinking it would type smiley face but instead it put in a quote and a ) and when I saved it it saved as a smiley face but if I hit the emoticon it doesn't save.

 

[david moon]

Counting also makes you pay attention to rests, the "beat boundaries", and pickup notes.

You might want to try a visual aid as shown here.

That one is the Thrill is Gone rhythm and also shows a lot of ties over beat boundaries and bar lines.