Counting Audibly vs Using a Metronome
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Paleo
Student Of The Blues
Maybe we should let Griff speak for himself.
https://bluesguitarunleashed.com/blog/turn-off-your-metronome/
https://bluesguitarunleashed.com/blog/how-to-use-a-metronome/
https://bluesguitarunleashed.com/blog/turn-off-your-metronome/
https://bluesguitarunleashed.com/blog/how-to-use-a-metronome/
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dwparker
Bluesologist
You know what the count is from reading the music. I was going through the William Leavitt stuff before coming over to bgu, and everything there was notation with a metronome. I also only used a metronome when learning to play the piano and clarinet. The emphasis on counting out loud was something new to me with Griff.
Don't get me wrong, I am counting out loud now while going through the bgu unleashed, and you hear the metromome in the recoreded examples, but a lot of teachers are really strict with metronome use, and it struck me today that Griff isn't, so I thought I'd ask about it.
Don't get me wrong, I am counting out loud now while going through the bgu unleashed, and you hear the metromome in the recoreded examples, but a lot of teachers are really strict with metronome use, and it struck me today that Griff isn't, so I thought I'd ask about it.
Grateful_Ed
Student Of The Blues
The metronome tells you where the beats are, not where the notes go. You need both.
edit...as Mike breaks down below and Paleo above, you need to count out the notes before worrying about timing. I didn't mean that both were necessary from the get go, just that a metronome won't help on it's own if you haven't already figured out where the notes go.
edit...as Mike breaks down below and Paleo above, you need to count out the notes before worrying about timing. I didn't mean that both were necessary from the get go, just that a metronome won't help on it's own if you haven't already figured out where the notes go.
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Just to be clear, when Paleo talks about consistency when counting and that you shouldn't use a metronome,
Counting is used to ensure that you are hitting notes at the right time.
for instance...It may be that there are notes on all the eighth notes down beats (1,2,3,4)
You will count 1& 2& 3& 4& Playing only on the 1,2,3,4 not any of the &'s
BUT...
even if you aren't counting them in time, 1&2....&.....3&..4& (time passes between beats)
That's ok as long as you are playing the right note at the right time.
Once you are sure you have the right notes on the right beat, then you can work on getting the timing right with or without a metronome.
If you don't know when to strike a note, a metronome will only make it harder.
Counting is used to ensure that you are hitting notes at the right time.
for instance...It may be that there are notes on all the eighth notes down beats (1,2,3,4)
You will count 1& 2& 3& 4& Playing only on the 1,2,3,4 not any of the &'s
BUT...
even if you aren't counting them in time, 1&2....&.....3&..4& (time passes between beats)
That's ok as long as you are playing the right note at the right time.
Once you are sure you have the right notes on the right beat, then you can work on getting the timing right with or without a metronome.
If you don't know when to strike a note, a metronome will only make it harder.
Silicon Valley Tom
It makes me happpy to play The Blues!
The metronome is essential to know at what speed you are playing. Learning a new piece of music normally requires playing at a slower speed. Counting is essential to be sure that you play a note at the correct place within a bar. When you get to the place where you may play a note slightly before or after the notation requires it, you are adding expression to the music. That is when you know that you are on the right path. The presumption being that you in fact are attempting to use the note to express yourself, and that the audience will appreciate your playing!
Tom
Tom
Elwood
Blues
That is one reason that I enjoy metronome practice. On a good day when the notes are behaving themselves you can play against the metronome and practice that "almost late to dinner" timing. Sometimes that works, and if you can get it going without "rubberbanding" against the time, it's fun too! Note values are another one, let 'em ring, or clip 'em short, do it deliberately and the metronome is your mirror. Blah, Blah, big metronome fan here. My goals may not be yours though. I'm trying to keep my hands moving, imprint some muscle memory, and spend the time I need to figure out how to get around the fingerboard smoothly. I am not in a rush.
Tayport
Blues Newbie
Counting out loud was never natural to me, I was trying to learn a strumming pattern and just couldn't get it down. I have a 30 minute lesson once a week and my teacher told me that I definitely needed to count it out. So, during my time off from work during this crisis, while I walked our dog I would count out the rhythm while tapping my side. It took awhile but it worked! it was a break through moment for me.
david moon
Attempting the Blues
A metronome will keep you on the tempo. Some might also put out a different click on the "one". Counting will keep you on track with where the notes go. Like a pickup note on the & of 4
Crossroads
Thump the Bottom
A metronome can be a great tool especially in the beginning.
But relying on consistent timing can lead to a lack of creativity, and dynamics.
Interesting topic. Rather than hijack this thread I'll start a new one called varying your timing.
But relying on consistent timing can lead to a lack of creativity, and dynamics.
Interesting topic. Rather than hijack this thread I'll start a new one called varying your timing.
david moon
Attempting the Blues
A metronome will keep you on tempo. But if you jump ahead a beat, or lag a beat, the metronome is not going to tell you. And to nail a pickup note on the "and" of 4, you really need to be counting.
snarf
making guitars wish they were still trees
That's often me if I'm using a metronome. By the time I pull it out, I've worked the counting enough that all I'm listening to the metronome for is to be sure that I'm where I should be when the 1 hits. If I hear that I'm not playing what should be played on the 1, then the metronome gets turned back off and it's back to counting. Course I guess I'm still counting with the metronome going, I'm just using that different click to be sure that my counting is a consistent speed...or pushing my ability to get my speed faster.
Excellent way to describe it!
One of the reasons I stress counting out loud so much is simply the effect I've seen it have on students. I won't bore you with the details now, but time and time again my students would show up playing something wrong, and as soon as I would say, "count out loud so that I know where you think you are," they would play it correctly - magically
If you know that you are playing the notes on the right count/beat, then a metronome will help get your groove steady and tempo consistent. But if you don't know where, in time, the notes go, the metronome won't help.
Sounds like you have a good handle on where the notes go, so the metronome is a solid tool.
If you know that you are playing the notes on the right count/beat, then a metronome will help get your groove steady and tempo consistent. But if you don't know where, in time, the notes go, the metronome won't help.
Sounds like you have a good handle on where the notes go, so the metronome is a solid tool.
dwparker
Bluesologist
Thanks again everyone for the solid feedback, which as always, is very much appreciated.
Honestly through all the rhythm stuff in bgu I just read the notation, I've comped all those patterns before, so timimg was never a problem. In the jazz and gospel lessons I did count out loud, but mainly through those parts that I thought were tricky, made some notations with a pencil where needed, but moved on to just metronome pretty quickly. Solo's 1 and 2 though have been forcing me to count out loud consistently, and so I see the wisdom in this, and it is really helpful. I find my biggest problem is, if there is a pause, I will play the next note after the pause early by an 8th/16th note, depending on how it is going that particular day.
I just have to say, this course is really incredible. After getting nearly through book 2 of William Leavitt's A Modern Method for Guitar and waking up one day realizing all I could really do is play a bunch of scale, arpeggios, obscure chord grips and a few chord melodies (though I did learn one Django tune really well), BGU finally has me learning things I can use immediately with music I really enjoy. Thanks Griff, I sincerely mean that.
Honestly through all the rhythm stuff in bgu I just read the notation, I've comped all those patterns before, so timimg was never a problem. In the jazz and gospel lessons I did count out loud, but mainly through those parts that I thought were tricky, made some notations with a pencil where needed, but moved on to just metronome pretty quickly. Solo's 1 and 2 though have been forcing me to count out loud consistently, and so I see the wisdom in this, and it is really helpful. I find my biggest problem is, if there is a pause, I will play the next note after the pause early by an 8th/16th note, depending on how it is going that particular day.
I just have to say, this course is really incredible. After getting nearly through book 2 of William Leavitt's A Modern Method for Guitar and waking up one day realizing all I could really do is play a bunch of scale, arpeggios, obscure chord grips and a few chord melodies (though I did learn one Django tune really well), BGU finally has me learning things I can use immediately with music I really enjoy. Thanks Griff, I sincerely mean that.
Silicon Valley Tom
It makes me happpy to play The Blues!
Counting, and the use of a metronome are very important. Music notation, as opposed to many forms of tablature, will allow you to see what the composer intended. Some forms of music are more complex than others. One example is flamenco, where we have about 50 different forms called “Palos”, related to the branches of a tree. Bulería, alegría and solea as an example use a count of 12, and are in 3/4 time. Accents are used on Beats 12, 3, 6, 8, and 10. They start on Beat 12 by the way, to make it “more interesting”.
Whatever form of music you play, I suggest you do a good bit of listening. It really helps to be familiar with what you are learning to play. Personally, when it comes to the Blues, I have a preference for the Shuffle. I like the “feel”. It really struck home when I heard B. B. King say that “the shuffle is like having a conversation”. Other forms of the Blues can be a bit different. Some forms of the Blues require you to be in a race, to play as many notes and as fast as possible. That is not my cup of tea, but to each his/her own!
Listen to others playing the Blues, and record yourself. Enjoy!
Tom
Whatever form of music you play, I suggest you do a good bit of listening. It really helps to be familiar with what you are learning to play. Personally, when it comes to the Blues, I have a preference for the Shuffle. I like the “feel”. It really struck home when I heard B. B. King say that “the shuffle is like having a conversation”. Other forms of the Blues can be a bit different. Some forms of the Blues require you to be in a race, to play as many notes and as fast as possible. That is not my cup of tea, but to each his/her own!
Listen to others playing the Blues, and record yourself. Enjoy!
Tom
dwparker
Bluesologist
I agree with you on notation, which I tend to prefer. I really don't like music just written in tab. Even if I am using tabs, I always cross reference everything with the music.Counting, and the use of a metronome are very important. Music notation, as opposed to many forms of tablature, will allow you to see what the composer intended. Some forms of music are more complex than others. One example is flamenco, where we have about 50 different forms called “Palos”, related to the branches of a tree. Bulería, alegría and solea as an example use a count of 12, and are in 3/4 time. Accents are used on Beats 12, 3, 6, 8, and 10. They start on Beat 12 by the way, to make it “more interesting”.
Whatever form of music you play, I suggest you do a good bit of listening. It really helps to be familiar with what you are learning to play. Personally, when it comes to the Blues, I have a preference for the Shuffle. I like the “feel”. It really struck home when I heard B. B. King say that “the shuffle is like having a conversation”. Other forms of the Blues can be a bit different. Some forms of the Blues require you to be in a race, to play as many notes and as fast as possible. That is not my cup of tea, but to each his/her own!
Listen to others playing the Blues, and record yourself. Enjoy!
Tom
No worries about me listening to the music. I listen actively to a couple of songs each day and passively for at least an hour.
I'm brand new to BGU and this is my first post. I searched for "counting" and ended up on this thread. I've been playing about ten years and finally decided to narrow my focus to playing the blues and this site looks perfect. So right away I realized that counting out loud was going to be challenging for me even though I have a good feel for the blues and when to play chords and notes. Griff makes it clear that he thinks counting is a fundamental and stresses its benefits. What's the consensus out there on this? If I move ahead in the course without nailing this am I making a mistake? Thanks, Rick in Washington State