12 bar help

[JonathanOsborn]

Hi, I have a question about the 12 bar blues. First a word about my background so you see where I'm coming from. I've played for years....any darn thing that I've fancied. I never paid attention to counting time or the blues framework except what I randomly put together. Griff has emphasized counting but up to now I've ignored that advice.

Recently I inherited a looper and then decided I'd learn to use it. Because I'm so undisciplined it comes hard for me. So I decided this was the time to learn and play by the rules.

First, I find that I can't tap my foot to the time. I can play fairly well with a metronome but when I try playing without it, my foot stops tapping. Seems I can play or tap but not both. I've tried tapping both feet together but that doesn't work either. Any ideas?

Second, I've been trying to address the 12 bar blues. My question is how rigid it is? For example, the first four bars of the songs get boring and less interesting to me. Can I shave off two of the measures of the first four and make a 10 bar blues? I guess you can do anything you want but i wonder if I liked the 10 bar variation, how could I describe it to my band members?

Basically, I want to know if I can develop songs in 8, 10, or any other number or do I HAVE to stick with the 12 bar format? Can somebody point me to a resource that demonstrates an other than 12 bar format?

 

[Rick23]

If you can’t tap, count and play at the same time….slow down until you can. For counting, Griff has a course The Ultimate Counting Workshop. 8 bar blues are pretty common, think Key to the Highway.

 

[Elwood]

First, I find that I can't tap my foot to the time. I can play fairly well with a metronome but when I try playing without it, my foot stops tapping. Seems I can play or tap but not both. I've tried tapping both feet together but that doesn't work either. Any ideas?

Sure, give this a try...
1) start metronome
2) start tapping (with time! alternate feet if it helps. get tapping with time.)
3) start playing

This is what I do and I like my metronome time. You really need to engage the passing time, tapping gets your body in the game. Then when you have a happy tapper, things should stay together better, after more practice.
You can feel when you play over the metronome vs playing with it. (not talking about counting anything here, talking feeling) Once you are solid playing with your metronome and your foot you can drop either as you wish.

That's what I'm always hoping for.

Hey, that looper is like the ugly mirror. Don't stress! You are on the right track.

 

[Paleo]

Can somebody point me to a resource....

Griff's "How To Build Blues Songs".

Section 3 discusses variations on the 12 Bar form.

Section 4 discusses variations on the 8 Bar form.

And he recently released a new set of 8 Bar jam tracks.

Other sections discuss various rhythm figures and feels, beginnings, endings, tags, breaks and bridges.

There's plenty enough variety to get you started.

You might also check out "52 Rhythm Fills & Variations".

 

[PapaRaptor]

@Rick23's advice up to this point is the most succinct and probably most valuable. If you can't play and count at the same time, slow down until you can. It may seem painful at first, especially if you've been playing for years (and can't count). Once your brain, ears and fingers finally get synchronized and you can do it. You will amaze yourself at how quickly your progress at counting will happen.

As to your question about possibly shaving a couple bars off a 12 bar, you can, but why would you? You have an accepted standard that nearly everyone subliminally knows.
There are variants, such as the quick change (I - IV - I - I - IV - IV - I - I - V - IV - I - V) and this (IV - IV - I - I - IV - IV - I - I - V - IV - I - V). There are variants on the turn-arounds as well. For the most part, the 12 bar blues has come to be the "interchangeable parts" of music. Radically changing the specs makes them something you would have to explain in advance of a jam and for most musicians will not allow for an intuitive play-thru.

There are other variants, 8 bar blues and the 16 bar blues (aka long I).

The material @Paleo referenced is not to be missed, either!

 

[JohnHurley]

A real common variation on a 12 bar blues has a change on the second measure and ( may ) go back to 5 on the 12. A quick change.

1 4 1 1
4 4 1 1
5 4 1 5

Paleo hit it out of the park with the specific references.

Try listening to songs you like and practice tapping your foot keeping time without worry about the guitar for a while?

 

[Paleo]

As to "counting", I'll refer you to Griff's own blog.

https://bluesguitarunleashed.com/blog/counting-vs-feeling/

"The goal of counting is to not need to count anymore..."

Counting is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

I'll leave it at that.

 

[Silicon Valley Tom]

Do what I did! I started playing piano when I was 6, and guitar when I was 10! Well, that was meant as a joke. The above advice should be followed. Just give yourself time and keep at it.

Yes, we have 8, 12, and 16 bar blues.

I remember a critic stating that Roy Orbison , would sometimes play 13 bars of one of his songs on stage, rather than the 12 as written. What ever works!

I have often mentioned my friend and band mate John, who played guitar and tapped his left foot completely out of time and very violently. He kept perfect time while playing, and to avoid problems, we put him at our far left, so we could not see his foot going to town!

Another suggestion is to start off with slow and shuffle Blues pieces. Get the "feeling of the music". Enjoy the journey.

Tom

 

[Elwood]

I remember a critic stating that Roy Orbison , would sometimes play 13 bars of one of his songs on stage, rather than the 12 as written. What ever works!

yeah, like my buddy that sat in playing bass for John Lee Hooker a few times. He told me the rule was "the change comes when The Hook changes". He says you just had to pay attention.

 

[Silicon Valley Tom]

Anyone attempting to navigate through twelve bars, could use a bit of assistance!

Tom

 

[Paleo]

Anyone attempting to navigate through twelve bars, could use a bit of assistance!

Tom

Been there, done that.

 

[david moon]

yeah, like my buddy that sat in playing bass for John Lee Hooker a few times. He told me the rule was "the change comes when The Hook changes". He says you just had to pay attention.

If you listen to John Lee Hooker, it could be 12 1/2 or 13 bar blues, the band never knows what to expect.

 

[Elio]

Hi, I have a question about the 12 bar blues. First a word about my background so you see where I'm coming from. I've played for years....any darn thing that I've fancied. I never paid attention to counting time or the blues framework except what I randomly put together. Griff has emphasized counting but up to now I've ignored that advice.

Recently I inherited a looper and then decided I'd learn to use it. Because I'm so undisciplined it comes hard for me. So I decided this was the time to learn and play by the rules.

First, I find that I can't tap my foot to the time. I can play fairly well with a metronome but when I try playing without it, my foot stops tapping. Seems I can play or tap but not both. I've tried tapping both feet together but that doesn't work either. Any ideas?

Second, I've been trying to address the 12 bar blues. My question is how rigid it is? For example, the first four bars of the songs get boring and less interesting to me. Can I shave off two of the measures of the first four and make a 10 bar blues? I guess you can do anything you want but i wonder if I liked the 10 bar variation, how could I describe it to my band members?

Basically, I want to know if I can develop songs in 8, 10, or any other number or do I HAVE to stick with the 12 bar format? Can somebody point me to a resource that demonstrates an other than 12 bar format?

As far as the foot-tapping goes, I had exactly the same problem. I just could not get myself to tap and play at the same time as the tapping was too distracting for me. During the COVID lockdown I decided to finally focus on my counting and timing issues by doing the How to Improvise course, which heavily emphasize it. I could always get myself to count out loud while playing, but I had to really push myself to do it and it never came naturally. I completely ignored the foot-tapping but tried to make the counting come more naturally. After a few months of concentrated focus, I got to the point that I could count out loud pretty much on demand, but the thing that surprised me the most was that I found myself tapping my foot without even thinking about it or even trying. Once the rhythm became engrained, it just happened. The end result was that I ended up sounding better and having a lot more confidence in my playing, such as it is

There are a lot of variations on the 12 bar blues, such as a quick change, starting on the V chord, using the 8-bar blues format, etc. The advantage to sticking to one of them is that it is easy to communicate to a band so that everyone is on the same page. Creating your own format just adds the complication of having to explain it to everyone and hoping they get it right. Griff covers a number of variations in the early BGU lessons, and his Strumming and Rhythm Mastery course.

https://happybluesman.com/common-variations-12-bar-blues/

 

[Elio]

Anyone attempting to navigate through twelve bars, could use a bit of assistance!

Tom

Exactly my point. By the 10th or 11th I always get lost and have to go back to the first bar and start over again!

 

[Tangled_up_in_Blue]

, but the thing that surprised me the most was that I found myself tapping my foot without even thinking about it or even trying. Once the rhythm became engrained, it just happened.

Hi Jonathan

My experience with the foot tapping/counting has been similar to Elio's comment. I have only been practicing guitar for about 18 months (13 of that solely with Griff's material) and in the beginning I tried desperately to get the foot tapping in time. It was so frustrating I stopped concentrating on it. Well after a year or so it now comes naturally. I stomp my foot intuitively. I sometimes sense it goes off the beat a bit when playing more complicated rhythmical parts but as soon as I know that part to the point where I don't have to think about the count the foot tapping gets back on point. Long story short is that if you don't stress about it and overcomplicate things you may well find it comes naturally, given time (excuse the pun!).
Enjoy the journey.

 

[Griff]

Hi, I have a question about the 12 bar blues. First a word about my background so you see where I'm coming from. I've played for years....any darn thing that I've fancied. I never paid attention to counting time or the blues framework except what I randomly put together. Griff has emphasized counting but up to now I've ignored that advice.

Recently I inherited a looper and then decided I'd learn to use it. Because I'm so undisciplined it comes hard for me. So I decided this was the time to learn and play by the rules.

First, I find that I can't tap my foot to the time. I can play fairly well with a metronome but when I try playing without it, my foot stops tapping. Seems I can play or tap but not both. I've tried tapping both feet together but that doesn't work either. Any ideas?

Second, I've been trying to address the 12 bar blues. My question is how rigid it is? For example, the first four bars of the songs get boring and less interesting to me. Can I shave off two of the measures of the first four and make a 10 bar blues? I guess you can do anything you want but i wonder if I liked the 10 bar variation, how could I describe it to my band members?

Basically, I want to know if I can develop songs in 8, 10, or any other number or do I HAVE to stick with the 12 bar format? Can somebody point me to a resource that demonstrates an other than 12 bar format?

You've really got 2 questions going on so I'll give you some input on both:

1 - You don't have to count, but you do have to keep time or people can't follow what you're doing (listeners or bandmates.) I can tell you from personal experience that I could put earplugs in so that I can't hear my student, and just watch their foot. As soon as I see their foot get wonky I know they are about to make a mistake. It NEVER fails.

Granted, it doesn't have to be your foot, some people rock back and forth in time, but keeping time is essential, and without it you will make mistakes and you won't realize you're making the mistake unless someone tells you, or someone is playing with you and it's obvious.

In fact, one of the most important things behind counting out loud is that it tells you when you're making a mistake if you don't otherwise know (which happens a lot.) I've had students play things wrong all day long until they count out loud, and then they play them perfectly. Why? Don't know, I just know I've seen it a lot of times (hundreds or more.)

2 - Songs don't always have 12 bars, but in order to be a "blues" it has to be 12 or 8, and it has to follow the formula. There's no rule that says you can't make a song with a 10 bar format, but you can't tell someone it's a blues in G when it's only got 10 bars.

I typically use a quick change (IV chord on bar 2) because 4 bars on the same chord can be a drag at times. But if you want more changes, maybe stick with 8 bar forms as they definitely move a little quicker through the chord changes.

As for describing it to band members, a simple chart with the chords ought to do it unless you have something very specific in mind.

 

[Elwood]

but in order to be a "blues" it has to be 12 or 8, and it has to follow the formula.

Boy, Griff, that one really hurts my brain. I always enjoyed hearing blues bands that broke out of that 12-8 bar, 1,4,5 -formula fence. I think some of the old blues guys only knew bars as a place you might get a drink, meet a woman, or get paid for playing if you were lucky.

Just a quick pass down memory lane..."Hootchie Coochie Man" (edit: naw, I guess that one fits the recipe kinda, "Smokestack Lightning", and far as I can remember the first blues tune I ever learned was "Spoonful" (Willie Dixon, Howlin Wolf hit, then on to the rock guys). I know there are lots more, no need to get all googley.

As a general rule your statement does define what you wish to identify as "blues" on your site (learning "blues" as opposed to songs that give you the blues, etc.).
As a blanket statement I'm sure you agree there are many noteworthy exceptions.

If I am wrong, please correct me. Time passes and terms change. That is how I know it.

As always, Thanks for all your hard work and all the fine learning material and resources you make available to all of us! Happy Holidays!!!

 

[BraylonJennings]

True enough. I just read from John Lee Hooker's one time bassist and he described having to pay attention to the Hook to know when to make the changes. Of course, that's if there were any changes at all.

 

[Paleo]

Does anyone “honor” quotation mark’s anymore?

And if you thought 4 bars on one chord was boring ……

 

[Griff]

Boy, Griff, that one really hurts my brain. I always enjoyed hearing blues bands that broke out of that 12-8 bar, 1,4,5 -formula fence. I think some of the old blues guys only knew bars as a place you might get a drink, meet a woman, or get paid for playing if you were lucky.

Just a quick pass down memory lane..."Hootchie Coochie Man" (edit: naw, I guess that one fits the recipe kinda, "Smokestack Lightning", and far as I can remember the first blues tune I ever learned was "Spoonful" (Willie Dixon, Howlin Wolf hit, then on to the rock guys). I know there are lots more, no need to get all googley.

As a general rule your statement does define what you wish to identify as "blues" on your site (learning "blues" as opposed to songs that give you the blues, etc.).
As a blanket statement I'm sure you agree there are many noteworthy exceptions.

If I am wrong, please correct me. Time passes and terms change. That is how I know it.

As always, Thanks for all your hard work and all the fine learning material and resources you make available to all of us! Happy Holidays!!!

I agree, I prefer music that does deviate from the form, and a LOT of the original blues players would cut bars short or add an extra bar here or there... it certainly happened.

And there is more to the "blues" definition, but it really depends on what you're defining and why, and it's REALLY easy to get hung up on semantics and definitions if we're not careful (I've seen quite a few arguments where everyone is really arguing the same point and calling it something different.... a rose by any other name and all that

For my purposes 999 out of 1000 times I'm defining a blues in terms of something you're going to solo over. So the primary detail is that all 3 chords are dominant 7th family chords, and it sticks to the I, IV, and V. If you stick with that, I guess regardless of the number of bars, my soloing strategies will work without modification.

As you start to get into ii, iii, vi, or other chords, my soloing rules won't hold up and you need more, so we consider it outside of a blues. Even though you might hear it on a blues radio station - that's a different way of using the term.

So I guess the main thing is to be very specific about what you're defining... is it the structure of the music, and therefore how you would approach soloing over it, or are you referring to the genre at large, where the definition could arguably be much broader.