12/8 Rests

Bill_B

Blues Newbie
I was working on a solo today in 12/8 time. No problem, it's still 4 taps of the foot. That is until I got to a dotted half rest for the first beat. Is this 3 beats, or 9 beats, neither of which work out with the remaining notes in the bar. I suppose my question is: Does the value of a rest change with the time signature?
 

Bill_B

Blues Newbie
Thank Paleo. I said beats, but I'm thinking counts. 9 counts is what I thought it was. This will help.
 

PapaRaptor

Father Vyvian O'Blivion
Staff member
12/8 time
eighth note/rest = 1 beat
quarter note/rest = 2 beats
dotted quarter note/rest = 3 beats (one foot tap)
half note/rest = 4 beats
dotted half note/rest = 6 beats (two foot taps)
whole note/rest = 8 beats (three foot taps)
dotted whole note/rest = 12 beats (4 foot taps)

12-8TimeValues.jpg
<Animation with audio here>
 
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dvs

Green Mountain Blues
I'm with Lloyd on this one.

A dotted half note will take up the same space as three quarter notes or six eighth notes, regardless of time signature.
 

Bill_B

Blues Newbie
Let me see if I can scan the bar, or reproduce it with some software. It is 4 beats divided by 3. 12 counts per measure. I really just want to understand the rest properly first. If I know that much for sure, maybe the rest will fall into place.
 

PapaRaptor

Father Vyvian O'Blivion
Staff member
So the time signature doesn't matter.
Yes, it does. It's really just simple math. If you watch the animation link I posted here you'll see 12/8. I can whip out a similar animation for 4/4 timing for comparison in just a few minutes.
 

Bill_B

Blues Newbie
PapaRaptor. I was posting that at the same time Paleo was posting, which made me rethink it again. So I deleted that post. What I need is a one on one so I can ask/answer questions. I'm going to see if my old instructor will sell me some of his time.

Thanks all for the help.
 

PapaRaptor

Father Vyvian O'Blivion
Staff member
PapaRaptor. I was posting that at the same time Paleo was posting, which made me rethink it again. So I deleted that post. What I need is a one on one so I can ask/answer questions. I'm going to see if my old instructor will sell me some of his time.

Thanks all for the help.
Hey Bill, I was working on this while you posted. I'll leave it here to see if it helps.
TimeSignature.png
The smaller number counts in 12/8 are only there to indicate that there are in fact 12 beats in a measure in 12/8 time. It doesn't matter how you subdivide the measure, you still have 12 beats. You don't have to count it like it's 12 beats as in the "1 & uh" method usually used, but it's a whole lot easier to get your head around "1 & uh" than "ONE-two-three-FOUR-five-six-SEVEN-eight-nine-TEN-eleven-twelve."

I've been working a lot with MIDI timelines lately, and believe me, MIDI will drill it into your head. Working with a MIDI editor simply will not let you get it wrong or you'll spend half your life scratching your head trying to figure out what you did wrong! :D
 
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Bill_B

Blues Newbie
Thanks Papa. That is more of what I was searching the net for. You won't mind if I copy that to put in my binder?

It's not that I can't play the solo. Tap foot, listen to what it sound like, and I'm good. Griff has me fixated on this timing thing (I mean that in a good way. My playing has improved because of it), I just think it's important to know what you don't understand.
 

PapaRaptor

Father Vyvian O'Blivion
Staff member
Thanks Papa. That is more of what I was searching the net for. You won't mind if I copy that to put in my binder?

It's not that I can't play the solo. Tap foot, listen to what it sound like, and I'm good. Griff has me fixated on this timing thing (I mean that in a good way. My playing has improved because of it), I just think it's important to know what you don't understand.

You're welcome to copy it. It was a good exercise for me just to document it. It's something I knew in my head, but hadn't actually thought about how to convey it in a nutshell.
 

PapaRaptor

Father Vyvian O'Blivion
Staff member
One more thing just to add a little smoke and mirrors...
The Time signature can be thought of as a fraction, which equals one measure. The fraction doesn't have to equal one, but it equals one measure.

12/8 says 12 eighth notes = 1 measure.
Just like math taught us (or tried to teach us), If the numerator and demomimator are both divisible by a common prime number, then:
12/8 = 6/4 6 quarter notes = 1 measure.
12/8 = 3/2 3 half notes = 1 measure.

Obviously, you can mix and match different length notes to achieve a measure, but that's what will test your math skills.

4/4 timing spoils us all, since that's essentially what western music most commonly uses, which is why a letter "C" often appears instead of a time signature, indicating Common timing.
4/4 4 quarter notes =1 measure
2/2 2 half notes = 1 measure
1/1 1 whole note = 1 measure

I'll stop now. My brain is starting to hurt.
 
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snarf

making guitars wish they were still trees
4/4 timing spoils us all, since that's essentially what western music most commonly uses, which is why a letter "C" often appears instead of a time signature, indicating Common timing.
Reminds me of the music director at the church where I grew up. He was a very respected musician in town, could play anything put in front of him, and even taught music at the local high school. Strangest thing, though, he counted practically everything in 2. The only thing I can think of that he didn't was 3/4 time. Everything else, 2/4, 4/4, 6/8, 12/8...he counted in varying speeds of 2.
 

Jalapeno

Student Of The Blues
I suppose my question is: Does the value of a rest change with the time signature?
You've got plenty of good answers so I will just add a footnote. The only rest that changes value with the time signature is the Whole Rest because it signifies rest for the whole measure, regardless of the time signature. It is not uncommon in published music to see a whole measure of rests spelled out with the individual rests to make up the bar, but the convention is a Whole Rest means rest the entire measure. Sometimes in weird chorale music that is really slow and is in a time signature such as 2/1 you may see two Whole Rests so the singers know where the beat is.

Eric
 
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Jalapeno

Student Of The Blues
12/8 time
eighth note/rest = 1 beat
quarter note/rest = 2 beats
dotted quarter note/rest = 3 beats (one foot tap)
half note/rest = 4 beats
dotted half note/rest = 6 beats (two foot taps)
whole note/rest = 8 beats (three foot taps)
dotted whole note/rest = 12 beats (4 foot taps)

View attachment 14569

Good stuff PapaR, but one footnote to your example, measure 6 isn't a conventional notation method. In 12/8 a Whole Note crosses the mid point boundary all by itself so rather than notate it as in measure 1 below it is more conventional to notate it as in measure 2 below with a dotted half note tied to a quarter note. The first one isn't wrong but the second one clearly shows the boundary is crossed. The third measure below shows the pulse as 4 compound beats and really illustrates the boundary.


notes-1.png



Never mind, just theory geekerie. Carry on. :LOL::Beer:
Eric
 

david moon

Attempting the Blues
Good stuff PapaR, but one footnote to your example, measure 6 isn't a conventional notation method. In 12/8 a Whole Note crosses the mid point boundary all by itself so rather than notate it as in measure 1 below it is more conventional to notate it as in measure 2 below with a dotted half note tied to a quarter note. The first one isn't wrong but the second one clearly shows the boundary is crossed. The third measure below shows the pulse as 4 compound beats and really illustrates the boundary.


notes-1.png



Never mind, just theory geekerie. Carry on. :LOL::Beer:
Eric[/QUOTTheory geekerie is fun]
 
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