slow blues - feeling vs counting

[snarf]

Working back through BGU and actually trying to finish everything this time. Breezed through the first half and up through Solo 3. Solo 4 is actually making me work. So here's my suggestion and idea specifically.

Slow blues. Since we work so much on counting, spend some time talking specifically about the concept that you touch on where a slow blues is feeling it as much as counting. At the moment, I'm not trying to count everything specifically, just trying to make certain notes hit certain beats. For instance, a lick might start on the & of 1 in this measure and end about the uh of 3 in the next measure. What comes between just kind of hits where it hits. But in doing that, I'm having a heck of a time getting it to sound loose while staying in the groove. To my ear, it just sounds loose.

 

[OG_Blues]

snarf,
I make it a practice of cycling back through material I had previously "finished" also. It is a very beneficial practice IMO, at least it is for me.
I tend to move on to new stuff before really mastering the current material, so a second and even a third pass through it later is always
instructional and in particular, allows me to focus more on improving technique. I think I have a feel for what you are saying. I have also had a tendency once I have the feel for a solo, to just count count the rests and then just play the licks.
Here is what I have come to conclude, especially for the fast licks with a lot of notes.
Until I am able to play those fast licks with dead nuts accuracy in time, there is no way I can make it sound "loose AND in the pocket".
This may be counterintuitive, but actually maybe not. When I sound loose, the reality and truth is that I'm just playing sloppy. For me,
it's usually because my pull offs and/or hammer ons aren't played in proper time - i.e. poor technique where some of the notes in the lick
are either played ahead of or behind the time. This is something I'm really working on to try to improve. This means also counting the licks.
Damn - I think some other guy on this forum might have said that once or twice. What's his name? Kind of an odd name, starts with a G I think.

 

[ChrisGSP]

Guys, I believe OG is right when he says "Loose..(is).. playing sloppy". We've all got to be so diligent about keeping that internal time-keeper on the ball all the time. I find that most of the time I'm not actually counting, but I know which beat and which Bar I'm at, and can take a 2-beat rest or something like that if I get lost, then pick it up and travel on. The counting may be subliminal, but it's there, all the time.

 

[OG_Blues]

Guys, I believe OG is right when he says "Loose..(is).. playing sloppy". We've all got to be so diligent about keeping that internal time-keeper on the ball all the time. I find that most of the time I'm not actually counting, but I know which beat and which Bar I'm at, and can take a 2-beat rest or something like that if I get lost, then pick it up and travel on. The counting may be subliminal, but it's there, all the time.

I think this is the ultimate objective or goal - to get to the point where the counting, whatever form it may take (numbers, foot tapping, etc.) is just a background process in the mind while you play without thinking about it. There are so many tasks for the brain to manage while playing a guitar. The benefit of practice is reaching the point where some of them fade into the background but are still actively working.
Probably the most obvious example of this is what people (wrongly) call muscle memory. There is no memory in your muscles - nothing happens without the brain instructing it to act, so muscle memory is really just tasks that the mind has relegated to background tasks because it has developed those brain instruction paths to the point where it no longer requires focused thought.
Practice - the magic bullet. If only it came in pill form.

 

[snarf]

Until I am able to play those fast licks with dead nuts accuracy in time, there is no way I can make it sound "loose AND in the pocket".
This may be counterintuitive, but actually maybe not. When I sound loose, the reality and truth is that I'm just playing sloppy.

I think this may be the problem more than anything. By my own admission I have always been a bit of a sloppy player. And, by sloppy, I don't mean that I can't count. It's more of sloughing my way through licks sometimes where everything isn't always the best from a technique perspective. Caveat: No, I'm not trying to count the 32nd notes, but I know where they should start and end, so as long as it starts and ends where it should and sounds relatively even in the middle I'm not too worried about them. As well, when I slow down enough to count them, I count them as 16th notes with 2 parts to each.

In working on this one again later last night, I don't believe the counting is the problem. I know where I am in the song and where I am within a given measure. What I realized last night was that I don't know most of those licks nearly as well as I thought/was hoping I did. So combine my usual sloppy style of playing with kind of faking the licks, and I think that may be the bigger problem. Something else that guy whose name starts with G says. If you can't hum it, you can't play it. I think I still need to work on humming parts of it.

 

[ChrisGSP]

If you can't hum it, you can't play it. I think I still need to work on humming parts of it.

I think you've hit on the most important aspect right there @snarf. Learn it well enough to be able to hum/sing it in your sleep

 

[Tangled_up_in_Blue]

I've been working on BGU Solo#4 for a while now; it's certainly challenging me but I love it! There are some beautiful licks in there; hopefully in a few weeks I might actually be able to play them!
Interesting to note though that for quite a few of the licks Griff says that counting doesn't really work. You have to really listen to the original recording and get the feel from that. I have got as far as lick 15. This lick lasts 2 bars and Griff doesn't even count it out in the video!
Since starting learning to count properly from BGU and BSBB and the UCW my playing has improved exponentially and I have so much more confidence playing both rhythm and lead. But sometimes you just gotta feel it!

 

[snarf]

Interesting to note though that for quite a few of the licks Griff says that counting doesn't really work. You have to really listen to the original recording and get the feel from that. I have got as far as lick 15. This lick lasts 2 bars and Griff doesn't even count it out in the video!

And that's kind of what I'd like to hear Griff expound on a little bit. Since he preaches counting so much (and he should), I'd like to hear him talk a little more on feel vs count and when feel is appropriate. His playing it "loosely" and my playing it "loosely" aren't in the same ballpark. Like I said in the other post, at the moment, at least part of mine is because some of the licks are under my fingers, but I don't know them yet. I need to get to the point I'm not fudging through them.

When I first went through BGU, I thought I had gotten through Solo 4 before I got sidetracked and put it down. At this point, I'm thinking I got to Solo 4 and stopped there, and didn't actually work through it. Lick 15 is how far I got on it yesterday. Licks 10, 14, and 15 were the ones that were really giving me problems.

 

[MikeS]

I think this is the ultimate objective or goal - to get to the point where the counting, whatever form it may take (numbers, foot tapping, etc.) is just a background process in the mind while you play without thinking about it. There are so many tasks for the brain to manage while playing a guitar. The benefit of practice is reaching the point where some of them fade into the background but are still actively working.
Probably the most obvious example of this is what people (wrongly) call muscle memory. There is no memory in your muscles - nothing happens without the brain instructing it to act, so muscle memory is really just tasks that the mind has relegated to background tasks because it has developed those brain instruction paths to the point where it no longer requires focused thought.
Practice - the magic bullet. If only it came in pill form.

But Muscle Memory is so much easier to say...

 

[OG_Blues]

But Muscle Memory is so much easier to say...

Well, who can argue with that????

 

[JPsuff]

How 'bout we call it: "Procedural Consciousness"?

Then we could use it's initials (PC) for something other than starting an argument.

Win, win!

 

[OG_Blues]

How 'bout we call it: "Procedural Consciousness"?

Then we could use it's initials (PC) for something other than starting an argument.

Win, win!

Well, since the forum is presently in an argumentative mood about PC stuff , at least for me, "Procedural Unconsciousness" might
be better. We can call it PU - that more accurately portray my playing anyway!!

Today's interesting fact: Although using "PU" is no longer in common use for describing something that stinks, do you know where this came from?
PU stands for pig urine. Really, look it up.

More thread drift.

 

[snarf]

We can call it PU

Sooooo...you've been listening to me play, huh?

 

[CaptOblivious]

Muscles certainly don't have memory - ask mine - they seem to have forgotten everything I used to do with ease . . . .

These days my mind is making promises my body can't keep - my brain is in perfect time - my muscles - not even close or at least that's today's excuse

 

[Zzzen Dog]

The whole feel vs. count in slow blues, especially when there are areas that by Griff's own admission are things that are just sort flurried or "rushed" (my own emphasis). Solo 4 is made more difficult as I was struggling with the major / minor thing. I actually have taken a break from BGU for a few weeks, and am working my way through the Major Minor Blues Shapes course to help me with that.

I'm going to come back to Solo 4 once I'm done, to work through the timing vs. feel thing.

 

[Many Moons]

Working back through BGU and actually trying to finish everything this time.

We'll remind you of this the next time you start it again.

 

[snarf]

We'll remind you of this the next time you start it again.

IKR. I've only restarted it like 4 times so far. lol

 

[Many Moons]

IKR. I've only restarted it like 4 times so far. lol

I'd be too embarrassed to tell you how many times I've started it. And I made it as far as solo three as well.
I did learn all 5 of the Five Easy Blues Solos in the mean time though.