Notation question

Jalapeno

Student Of The Blues
Don't think about it too hard Mike, maybe the term "levels" is an extra abstraction you don't need. Let me show you a couple of simple examples of when using ties makes the tied notation conventional. The notes split by ties don't hide the beats the way a full note can.

I've put quarter notes at the top and eighth notes at the bottom just for reference. The music are the "F" notes on the staff. The red line is where the measure divides by a half note (two beats to the left and two beats to the right of the red line).

If you look at the note the blue arrow is pointing to in the first example it starts on a quarter note division and ends on a quarter note division. I've shown this with the red box in the 1/4 note reference.

In other words, "the half note begins and ends on a division of the 1/4 note". It sustains across the half note division. This notation is acceptable because the note begins on a quarter note and sustains across a half note division but a 1/4 note is the next division smaller than a 1/2 note.

note1.jpg




In this second example the note the blue arrow is pointing to begins on an 1/8th note division and ends on an 1/8th note division (as shown by the red box in the 1/8th note reference).

Here you have a note starting on an 1/8th division (notice the note is directly above a reference 1/8th but is between 1/4 notes), the "and" of two-and. The note sustains through a half note division. This is not "conventional" because an 1/8th is not one step smaller than a 1/2 it is two steps smaller than a 1/2.

1/8 -> 1/4 -> 1/2


note2.jpg


That simple example is not too hard to read but by convention the 1/4 should be split with a tie like this


note3.jpg


This method shows explicitly where the third beat is, even though the note is being sustained. It makes it easier for the performer reading the music to know where the beats are. Nothing is hidden.

I hope that helps.

Eric
 
Last edited:

MikeS

Student Of The Blues
Staff member
Don't think about it too hard Mike, maybe the term "levels" is an extra abstraction you don't need. Let me show you a couple of simple examples of when using ties makes the tied notation conventional. The notes split by ties don't hide the beats the way a full note can.

I've put quarter notes at the top and eighth notes at the bottom just for reference. The music are the "F" notes on the staff. The red line is where the measure divides by a half note (two beats to the left and two beats to the right of the red line).

If you look at the note the blue arrow is pointing to in the first example it starts on a quarter note division and ends on a quarter note division. I've shown this with the red box in the 1/4 note reference.

In other words, "the half note begins and ends on a division of the 1/4 note". It sustains across the half note division. This notation is acceptable because the note begins on a quarter note and sustains across a half note division but a 1/4 note is the next division smaller than a 1/2 note.

View attachment 13129




In this second example the note the blue arrow is pointing to begins on an 1/8th note division and ends on an 1/8th note division (as shown by the red box in the 1/8th note reference).

Here you have a note starting on an 1/8th division (notice the note is directly above a reference 1/8th but is between 1/4 notes), the "and" of two-and. The note sustains through a half note division. This is not "conventional" because an 1/8th is not one step smaller than a 1/2 it is two steps smaller than a 1/2.

1/8 -> 1/4 -> 1/2


View attachment 13130


That simple example is not too hard to read but by convention the 1/4 should be split with a tie like this


View attachment 13131


This method shows explicitly where the third beat is, even though the note is being sustained. It makes it easier for the performer reading the music to know where the beats are. Nothing is hidden.

I hope that helps.

Eric

Thanks Eric,
I THINK I've got it. Now, will I remember it when I need it? Who knows?
 

david moon

Attempting the Blues
try to group the notes so they can be read as subdivisions of beats. Tie to the next beat, not with a bigger note across beat boundaries. Your readers will thank you.

















Y
 

Jalapeno

Student Of The Blues
I THINK I've got it. Now, will I remember it when I need it? Who knows?
Luckily the software should handle it correctly most of the time. If the notation looks odd or hard to read you can look up best practices on the Internet. Quite a few music schools at universities publish the "rules" as an aid for their composing students thesis compositions. That's how I learned this stuff.

Eric
 

Jalapeno

Student Of The Blues
jalapeneo- agree mostly, but then there's syncopation
8 quarter 8 or 8 quarter, quarter, quarter 8,
Except in specific cases where a tie or dot would be mandatory (such as crossing a bar line or notating a beat + 1/16th, for example) there aren't hard notation rules.

I think I wrote that. :) I think I meant that notation should always assist the performer and in Mike's question and his examples the second one conforms better to standard publishing convention and therefore is easier to read. My second set of examples was to clarify what I meant, not to lay down specific rules.

Believe me, when I was a composition student they were sticklers about notation but ease of reading was the reason. Not unlike in English composition class where spelling, punctuation, grammar and form helps to clarify your writing to the reader.

Eric
 

david moon

Attempting the Blues
Except in specific cases where a tie or dot would be mandatory (such as crossing a bar line or notating a beat + 1/16th, for example) there aren't hard notation rules.

I think I wrote that. :) I think I meant that notation should always assist the performer and in Mike's question and his examples the second one conforms better to standard publishing convention and therefore is easier to read. My second set of examples was to clarify what I meant, not to lay down specific rules.

Believe me, when I was a composition student they were sticklers about notation but ease of reading was the reason. Not unlike in English composition class where spelling, punctuation, grammar and form helps to clarify your writing to the reader.

Eric
Agreed about ease of reading. I was always on that end, never a composer.

My syncopation examples only apply when the pattern "fits" 2 beats or 4 beats. 8 quarter 8 is quite recognizable after you see it a few times. As opposed to 8 8-tied-to-8 8. It even works for "swing eighths"..
 

david moon

Attempting the Blues
Mike there is no "RULE" but there is a publishing convention that is a best practice. When music is published there are traditionally 3 considerations:

1. Easy for the performer to read
2. Easy for the engraver to engrave
3. Cheap to publish for the publisher to make a profit.

Items two and three don't apply (you are NOT publishing for profit and with the advent of software notation music isn't generally engraved anymore).

For item one, "Easy for the performer to read" the convention is to refer to a hierarchy of the meter as levels and if you start or end your note two levels above or below you divide the note. Refer to the chart below with annotations to your first snippet. It is for 4/4 time (to match your snippets).

Since the whole note covers the whole measure we don't worry about it.
The Half note would be level 1
The quarter note would be level 2
The eighth note would be level 3
The sixteenth note would be level 4

View attachment 13118
I've matched your first snippet up to the 16th note level. You can see that your quarter note starts on a level 4 division (the 'e' of two-e-and-ah) and finishes across a level one division (the level one division is indicated by the red pseudo bar line (highlighted in blue)). Since you end your note two or more levels higher you'll divide the note with a tie.

Although the first snippet is not wrong, per se, the second snippet is better. And it follows a publishing convention developed over a couple of centuries. The human brain likes patterns.

I hope that helps.

Eric
Maybe we're done with this. But yes, in the example, a 16th tied to a quarter is a total of 5 16ths and the last one is in the next measure. So, it's very hard to see the groupings into beats and thus read. On beat 3 a 16th followed by dotted 8th (making a whole beat) then tied to a 16th in the next measure would be better.
 

MikeS

Student Of The Blues
Staff member
Ok, I gue4ss I AM still confused. I don't see ANYTHING that crosses a measure because its a one measure phrase written two different ways. That said, it is MUCH easier for me to write out (make sense of) the count in the second example (Bar 2)
 

MarcV

Blues Junior
Two cents from peanut gallery with less experience playing and reading than probably anyone on thread, but proud graduate of Griff's recent counting workshop: :whistle::whistle::whistle:
The second measure is superior as it is very easy to read and clearly conveys the rhythm of the lick.
Also probably already said before I would think that "standard" convention for tying notes together would always have the largest note value first (to the left that is). Measure one clearly violates this.
 

david moon

Attempting the Blues
Ok, I gue4ss I AM still confused. I don't see ANYTHING that crosses a measure because its a one measure phrase written two different ways. That said, it is MUCH easier for me to write out (make sense of) the count in the second example (Bar 2)
My mistake- I meant "beat boundary", not "measure". (the red vertical line in jalapeno's post)
 
Top