Pet Peeve - Don't Start on One

Jacques

Blues Newbie
I have a stupid question.

Griff talks about not starting licks on the first beat of a bar. Is that just at the beginning of a solo or throughout the entire solo? I realize some licks, phrases or whatever they are called are two or three bars. So obviously hitting a note on beat one will happen but just not at the beginning of lick, correct?
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
So obviously hitting a note on beat one will happen but just not at the beginning of lick, correct?

Correct.

Griff's "rule" is not starting any lick on beat one of any measure..

Further, ideally the lick will start and end on an offbeat.

If you happen to be an AAP member or have Griff's "Killer Blues Solos Made Easy" course, check out lesson 2 for his most complete discussion of his "3 Rules".:)
 
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JPsuff

Blackstar Artist
It's not a flat out rule but rather a suggestion. It works in most cases but not in every case.
If you listen to enough Blues tunes, you will on occasion hear some that start on the "one". It really depends upon the tune.
 

Elwood

Blues
If you listen to enough Blues tunes, you will on occasion hear some that start on the "one".
Right on!!! Lots! Elmore James dustin his broom, some of my favorite slow blues, T-bone, BB, Buddy Guy, Elvin. I love it when they jump out and slap you in the face just to let you know the tune is now underway.
When done on purpose it has some.
 

JPsuff

Blackstar Artist
Right on!!! Lots! Elmore James dustin his broom, some of my favorite slow blues, T-bone, BB, Buddy Guy, Elvin. I love it when they jump out and slap you in the face just to let you know the tune is now underway.
When done on purpose it has some.

Or in the case of the Allman Brothers, many of their tunes start on the "and" or the "ah" of 3 when they count off.

I know a lot of people who are fond of counting cringe at the word "feel" but feel is really what it's all about -- or more accurately, "groove".

Find the groove first and then take it from there.
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Pickup notes, by definition, don't start on the first downbeat of a measure, i.e. starting a song on the "and" of 3 or 4 is still not starting on 1.

When Griff discusses and demonstrates starting a lick on the 1 he states that it just doesn't "feel" right to do so.

Not feeling right, to him, is based on many more years of playing blues than most of us and having transcribed hundreds, if not thousands, of songs and rarely finding licks that start on 1.

Of course, another person's definition of just how rare "rarely" is, may differ.

I don't think coming up with a few examples that do start on 1 negates what he states from his experience is the more "common practice".

Still, everyone is free to play whatever and how ever they want.

It will just have a different "feel" from the "call and response" of "answering" the downbeat played by the rest of the band.
 
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JPsuff

Blackstar Artist
Pickup notes, by definition, don't start on the first downbeat of a measure, i.e. starting a song on the "and" of 3 or 4 is still not starting on 1.

True, but my point was that it isn't starting after the 1 either as has been often suggested by Griff. Ergo there is room for variation which may sometimes include the 1 itself.
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Starting a song on the 3 or 4 of the count-in still follows a 1 (and a 2) counted before that. And maybe a complete count of 4 before that.

The "rule" is about starting a lick in response to a preceding call. Of course, the response may be more than one measure long, which would include the first downbeat (s) or 1(s) of any following measure(s). However, the next response/lick would wait til after the first downbeat/call of a following measure or measures, depending on how much space you want to leave.

And, yes, you can have a pickup note for a lick during a song as well.

However, having a response before a call or as the call is being "stated" doesn't make much sense.

It would be like talking over another person in a conversation or not waiting for them to finish before you start to answer.

Again, you don't have to follow this "call and response" format if you don't want to.

But if you check out any of Griff's solos in any of his Blues oriented courses I don't think you'll find many occasions where he doesn't.
 

PapaRaptor

Father Vyvian O'Blivion
Staff member
Just for fun, check out the VJR for this rule.
Well, that was educational! I listened over the weekend, after reading your post. In listening back to half a dozen tracks there, I realized I start a lot more on the 1 than I thought.
Since then, I've focused on playing along with jam tracks and consciously avoiding playing on the one. Between listening (not filling all the cracks) and waiting past the 1 to start, my solos actually sound more interesting to me. Who-duh thunk?
 

Ted_Zeppelin

I’ll agree with you so that both of us are wrong.
I just sat down with my looper and Beat Buddy drum pedal, created a simple 1-4-5 loop and started soloing along as usual. The drum pedal gives me a great visual of what beat I am on. Sure enough, beat 1 was like a magnet for me to start playing on. I stopped and started several more times with the same result. I finally started to concentrate on the beat as it rolled across the pedal screen. I took a deep breath and forced myself to not play until a little deeper into the bar. I liked the results! It tends to make me slow down, leave some more empty spaces and overall gave a better flow to the solo. I also found that once I push myself back a beat or two, it was easier to stay off the 1. It’s going to take continuous practice and concentration until it becomes automatic, but I’m pretty sure the results will be worth it.
 

Randy S

Blues Junior
Also try experimenting with starting on the "ahs" rather than the downbeats. It is amazing how different a lick can sound depending on whether you start on the downbeat or not.
 

Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
As I like to put it: if you start on beat 1, it might work... but it might not.

If you don't start on beat 1, I can guarantee it will work.

I actually learned this rule from Steve Trovato many years ago, and it's stuck with me because when I started looking around I saw he was right.

Sure, people break rules, it's music and rules are to be broken... but also keep in mind that, even in traditional theory the music comes first, then scholars notice what is done most often and they call it a rule.

So, if something is being put forth as a rule or guideline, it's because enough music has been studied to show a pattern and the rule/guideline is that pattern.
 

snarf

making guitars wish they were still trees
Just so you don’t clap on one and three. :Beer:
Total and complete hi-jack here.

I've had the pleasure of seeing Harry Connick Jr like 3 times. I've always said that, if I played the piano, whatever he plays is the style I'd strive to copy. At some point, at each show I've been to, some chuckleheads will start clapping on the 1 and 3, and suddenly everyone is clapping with them. HCJr then does his magic and somehow they're clapping on the 2 and 4. In one of the shows (Bass Hall long about 2003 or so), he got up after the song and was laughing about it and telling folks to always clap on the 2 and 4. He, apparently, when the band isn't playing and it's just him on the piano, will throw in a measure at 5/4 and then immediately go back to 4/4, and voila! Everyone is now on the 2 and 4. Happens about the 40 second mark in the vid.

 
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