Why Did This Happen?

JPsuff

Blackstar Artist
Ok, so I go surfing through some backing tracks an I find one from "Elevated Jam Tracks" that has one called Atmospheric something or other and it's in Em in Lydian mode.

So I slide up and down the B string looking for what sounds good and I end up playing what turned out to be C# minor Pentatonic (at least that's what I thought it was but it sure wasn't Em) and it sounded awesome.

So what happened?
Is C# minor played over a track in Em somehow related to the Lydian mode and if so, why?

Now that I think about it, it may have been G# (I don't really know the fretboard that well), but as I wrote, it definitely wasn't Em.
 
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Danno

Blues Newbie
Just guessing here, but the C# minor pentatonic has the same notes as E major pentatonic and the lydian mode is, as I understand it, essentially a major scale with a sharp 4th. So E major pentatonic would contain all the notes of the E lydian since it doesn't have a 4th.
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
..it's in Em in Lydian mode.

(Do have a link to the track?)


Taking into consideration "Em in Lydian mode", as opposed to E Lydian.

My best guess (since I don't know what "Em in Lydian mode" meanso_O):

C# minor Pentatonic is relative to E Major Pentatonic, i.e. same notes, different root.

C# E F# G# B <-------> E F# G# B C#

So think E Major Pentatonic rather than C# minor Pentatonic.



E Lydian Dominant scale (4th mode of B melodic minor):

E F# G# A# B C# D = 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7

E Major Pentatonic has the 1 2 3 5 6 of the scale.

You're not playing the #4 or b7 of the scale.


Same reason you can play the E Major Pentatonic over E Ionian, E Lydian and E Mixolydian.

E F# G# A B C# D# = E Ionian (Major)

E F# G# A# B C# D# = E Lydian (#4)

E F# G# A B C# D = E Mixolydian (b7)

There's no 4 or 7 to contend with in the Pentatonic.
 
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JPsuff

Blackstar Artist
(Do have a link to the track?)


Taking into consideration "Em in Lydian mode", as opposed to E Lydian.

My best guess (since I don't know what "Em in Lydian mode" meanso_O):

C# minor Pentatonic is relative to E Major Pentatonic, i.e. same notes, different root.

C# E F# G# B <-------> E F# G# B C#

So think E Major Pentatonic rather than C# minor Pentatonic.



E Lydian Dominant scale (4th mode of B melodic minor):

E F# G# A# B C# D = 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7

E Major Pentatonic has the 1 2 3 5 6 of the scale.

You're not playing the #4 or b7 of the scale.


Same reason you can play the E Major Pentatonic over E Ionian, E Lydian and E Mixolydian.

E F# G# A B C# D# = E Ionian (Major)

E F# G# A# B C# D# = E Lydian (#4)

E F# G# A B C# D = E Mixolydian (b7)

There's no 4 or 7 to contend with in the Pentatonic.

The root note I started with is on the second string on the 9th fret which I played as the House Pattern and slid back down to Box 1, which is why I think it mi be G#.

Does that make any sense to you?

But the track was said to be in Em and Lydian was the suggested mode.
 

Randy S

Blues Junior
Em Lydian just does not exist. The Lydian scale is a major mode- has a Major third not a minor third. Eb Lydian-yes, Em Lydian- no.

C# minor pentatonic is the relative minor of E Major pentatonic- same 5 notes.

Major pentatonic will work over any Major mode. Will not have the full "color" of the mode but also will not include any "clunkers"- notes out of key that sound bad. Thus the beauty and the limitations of pentatonic scales.

So E Major pentatonic will sound fine over a track in E Lydian.

The G# sounds good because it is the third of the scale and the third is always a good resolution point- a chord tone of the tonic chord.

I suspect that the author just made a mistake and meant to say E Lydian rather than Em Lydian.
 
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Randy S

Blues Junior
The root note I started with is on the second string on the 9th fret which I played as the House Pattern and slid back down to Box 1, which is why I think it mi be G#.

Does that make any sense to you?

But the track was said to be in Em and Lydian was the suggested mode.

Now it is getting more complicated.

I mapped out the scale you played and have attached it. The scale is both G# minor pentatonic and B Major pentatonic.

If the track is E Lydian then:

E is Lydian and Major
F# is Mixolydian and Major
G# is Aeolian and minor
A# is Locrian and diminished
B is Ionian and Major

So E Lydian, G# Aeolian and B Ionian are relative scales- they have the same notes. So you can play B Ionian and , therefore, you can play B Major Pentatonic or G# Aeolian, and, therefore G# minor pentatonic, over the E Lydian track. Notice that the B Major Pentatonic and G# minor pentatonic doesn't include an E- which is why the G# resolution point works best.
 

Attachments

  • Scale.pdf
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Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Does that make any sense to you?

G# Aeolian is the 6th Mod of B Major

E Lydian is the 4th Mode of B Major.


All 3 scales, by definition, have the same 7 notes, those of the "parent" scale, B Major


You "discovered" G# minor Pentatonic, the G# Aeolian w/o the 2 & b6 (A# & E)

G# B C# D# F#

So, yes, you make sense. (Not so sure about the person who named the track.)

However, without the E you probably won't feel "settled".



I wasn't familiar with the "Elevated" tracks on YouTube, so I checked them out.

I see that they show the chord progression and a neck diagram of the suggested scale for each track.

That's why I asked for the link to the track.

To see if the progression is, indeed, Em or not.:)
 
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JPsuff

Blackstar Artist
G# Aeolian is the 6th Mod of B Major

E Lydian is the 4th Mode of B Major.


All 3 scales, by definition, have the same 7 notes, those of the "parent" scale, B Major


You "discovered" G# minor Pentatonic, the G# Aeolian w/o the 2 & b6 (A# & E)

G# B C# D# F#

So, yes, you make sense. (Not so sure about the person who named the track.)

However, without the E you probably won't feel "settled".



I wasn't familiar with the "Elevated" tracks on YouTube, so I checked them out.

I see that they show the chord progression and a neck diagram of the suggested scale for each track.

That's why I asked for the link to the track.

To see if the progression is, indeed, Em or not.:)

Thanks for the explanation.

I have to check the track (I've been at work all day and have no simple access to it) , but I KNOW Em and I know I wasn't playing that scale but what I WAS playing sounded very nice.

There were indeed notes I typically play when in Em that didn't fit, so I simply left them alone but everything else sounded good.

I'd really like to know what I "discovered" and understand what it was so that perhaps I can apply it to other things.
 

JPsuff

Blackstar Artist
I suspect that the author just made a mistake and meant to say E Lydian rather than Em Lydian.

Either that or I read it as minor when it may have been just E.

But whatever I was playing, I know the pattern was Pentatonic minor.

The mystery continues...
 

JPsuff

Blackstar Artist
OK, I'm home now.

This is the track (and yes, it's in E not E minor [my bad]).


The mode suggestion is E Lydian but I played it in G# minor Pentatonic and it sounded great.

So was what I played related to Lydian?
And if so, how could a minor scale sound so good in a major composition and how could it relate to Lydian (if it does at all) if Lydian is major?

This is really confusing. :confused:
 

Randy S

Blues Junior
So here are some easy rules to apply in using pentatonic scales:

This all assumes the chords are diatonic, i.e. all in one key.

The "best" fit is going to be Major Pentatonic over a major mode (Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian) and minor pentatonic over a minor mode (Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian).

To get some different sounds you can pick any chord in the progression and, if a major chord play major pentatonic from the chord's root, or if a minor chord play minor pentatonic from the chord's root. You can do so over the entire progression or go back and forth between that scale and the tonic chord's scale any time you want. You may not be playing the "best" notes at any one time but you won't be playing any notes that are out of key.

Or finally, but more difficult, is to "follow the chord". That is play the matching pentatonic scale over each chord as they change.

Rock and Roll likes to use "blues rules". That is, mix Major and minor pentatonic off the tonic chord's root- gives you a bluesy sound. I've seen that work over Ionian or Mixolydian- never seen it over Lydian so I don't know if it will work or not. And it starts to get dicey if there are any type of 7 chords (Maj, minor, or Dom) in the progression. Works very well over power chord based progressions.
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
The track is in E Lydian (Key of B Major) = E F# G# A# B C# D#

All the notes of G# minor Pentatonic (G# B C# D# F#) are in the E Lydian scale, so they "work".

However, the tonal center of the progression is E, not G#.

All minor scales are also Relative Major scales. (As well as all 5 other Relative modes.)

While thinking (and playing) G# min Pentatonic, you are also playing B Major Pentatonic,

i.e. you are actually playing a Major Pentatonic scale over a Major mode.

However, you don't have the tonal center, E, in the B Major/G# minor Pentatonic.
 
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JPsuff

Blackstar Artist
The track is in E Lydian (Key of B Major) = E F# G# A# B C# D#

All the notes of G# minor Pentatonic (G# B C# D# F#) are in the E Lydian scale, so they "work".

However, the tonal center of the progression is E, not G#.

All minor scales are also Relative Major scales. (As well as all 5 other Relative modes.)

While thinking (and playing) G# min Pentatonic, you are also playing B Major Pentatonic,

i.e. you are actually playing a Major Pentatonic scale over a Major mode.

However, you don't have the tonal center, E, in the B Major/G# minor Pentatonic.

Ok, now it's starting to make sense.

I think the fact that G# Pentatonic not having the E is what makes it sound so interesting.

And what you wrote about all the notes being in the E Lydian scale explains why it still sounds like it fits despite the "missing E".


This is one of those moments that motivates me to want to understand more about the "why".
Now it's not just theory for the sake of theory --now it's tied to something specific (which makes it more interesting). (y)

Thanks for the input! :Beer:
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
And what you wrote about all the notes being in the E Lydian scale explains why it still sounds like it fits despite the "missing E".

Exactly.

And if you add the E (and the A#) to the G# minor Pentatonic, you will have a "complete" B Major=E Lydian=G# Aeolian scale.:)


When you see a progression that is basically a back and forth between 2 Major chords a whole step apart, in this case E & F#, think Lydian. Ex: Fleetwood Mac's "Dreams", F(maj7)-G(6)
 
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