Amps Tone Master amps: Deluxe or Twin?

PapaRaptor

Father Vyvian O'Blivion
Staff member
Who cares what the power consumption is especially in a class D power amp?

Yeah but....
Power consumption isn't the same as power output, although in a Class D circuit it's reasonably close.

I agree that wattage is a lame way to measure amps. I remember when the FTC passed rules in the early 70's about stereo gear that was supposed to put the issue to rest. That specified RMS power, with both channels of a stereo amp driven at a total harmonic distortion of 1% or less and a reasonably flat frequency response from 20Hz to 20kHz.
Unfortunately, that doesn't translate well to guitar amplifiers, because:
a). We want them to distort
b). Frequency response from 20 to 20k is undesirable in a guitar amp.
 

Grateful_Ed

Student Of The Blues
I've looked at both longingly but as a dyed in the wool tube snob I can't justify the price. For that money you're getting into top of the line Quilter range, and I hear they are the cat's pajamas.
Bottom line, I would and occasionally do consider solid state amplification. For those near $1K prices I'd want more than a tube clone. shrug-smiley (50x50) (2).jpg
So...get both. ;)
 

MarkDyson

Blues Hound Wannabe
I've looked at both longingly but as a dyed in the wool tube snob I can't justify the price. For that money you're getting into top of the line Quilter range, and I hear they are the cat's pajamas.
Bottom line, I would and occasionally do consider solid state amplification. For those near $1K prices I'd want more than a tube clone. View attachment 9441
So...get both. ;)

So, "both" aside, what would you look for in a SS amp? For my part I'm shopping for something that's not a modeling amp, rather "tube like" but with SS light weight and reliability—a tube clone (heh). Something in a combo that's giggable and I'd not hesitate to toss in the back of my car without fearing breaking something. I was more than a little nervous about traveling with my Nace to the BGU NE jam.

The Fender amps in the subject line seemed the state of the art in what I'm considering, but I'm not married to the idea and would certainly entertain other options. Mayhap, before I hijack my own thread, that should get its own?
 

Grateful_Ed

Student Of The Blues
....but you are looking at "modeling amps". They just model nearly perfectly as I understand it, the Fender tube amps they are named after. I find that extremely attractive myself, but If you are going that route, why settle for only 1 amp sim? I suggest you search for Jim's (RR) description of his Quilter Amp.
Again please understand that you're getting this advice from a guy who's only digi amps are antique ('cept maybe the Yamaha thr 10 and 5, and who never takes his amps farther than the next room. I have no practical experience in this area and only replied because on occasion, I've been seduced by the dark side myself. :Beer:
 

Crossroads

Thump the Bottom
So, "both" aside, what would you look for in a SS amp? For my part I'm shopping for something that's not a modeling amp, rather "tube like" but with SS light weight and reliability—a tube clone (heh).

Don't get hung up on labels, if it doesn't have tubes and is using DSP to sound like a tube amp, it is a modeling amp. Even a Quilter is a modeling amp.

In the end, does it have the features you want (like effects loop, 2 channel, line out, built in reverb or tremolo) stuff like that?

Is it light weight and portable?

Is it easily scale-able, so you can go into a small room or a large room and turn one volume knob, EQ and get your sound? To me that one is huge, and no you can't do that with most tube amps.

Good bang for the buck, and if you really want it, in the end who cares, you got what you wanted.

And most importantly does it sound good?

And as Dorothy told Glenda the Good Witch If I ever go searching for my heart's desire again, I won't look any further than my own music room, because it is probably there already. :)
 
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straightblues

Blues Junior
As others have said, solid-state amps aren't near as powerful as tube amps. Solid State amps to my ears sound best when they are not pushed hard. So, I would go with the higher volume Twin even if I didn't plan on running it loud.
 

PapaBear

Guit Fiddlier
I'd say the key factors would be clean headroom and moving air..
If they truly behave like the tube versions, the Deluxe will break up slightly sooner then the Twin.
There will not be a huge difference in total volume though.
My guess is, for most smaller venues, that you're likely to play in, either one will be way more volume then you'll need.
I'd further guess, that you won't be relying on the amps for your break up tone anyways.
Once you start running O/D pedals into them it won't make any difference which one you pick because the amp tone will be clean and the O/D pedal will give you the crunch you'll want.

If you think your future will have you on a big stage that accepts loud amps for big audiences, get the Twin because the 2 X 12s will push more air to fill bigger spaces.
Having said that, if you're looking for less weight and more portability the Twin takes you in the wrong direction.
Not if it copies the real deals if my Twin will break up at all I haven't found the 11 knob
 

Iheartbacon

Blues Junior
Not if it copies the real deals if my Twin will break up at all I haven't found the 11 knob

A real Black Face or early to mid Silver Face (100 watt not the 135’s) should start to break up with the volume around 6 or so with a Strat and earlier with buckers, pickup output depending of course, and the mids at 3+. They should be pretty broken when dimed with most normal output pickups.

I have had a number of twins in my stable or on my work bench over the years and there is quite a bit of variation between them, but I have never had one that stayed clean when completely cranked. Put in some foam ear plugs and then some shooting muffs on top and crank it. It should get nasty...and so will your wife and neighbors.
 

CaptainMoto

Blues Voyager
My understanding is this:

-There is no difference in volume between a Tube and a Solid State amp of the same wattage.

-The perceived volume on a Tube amp is louder because it breaks up, fooling your ears.
This is the same thing that happens when you kick in an O/D pedal...........you perceive it to be louder.


Similarly a 1x 12" is not much louder than a 2 x12" (+3dB) but, the perceived volume is much greater.
 
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CaptainMoto

Blues Voyager
Not if it copies the real deals if my Twin will break up at all I haven't found the 11 knob
Right,..........when you get into 100 and 200 watt amps, you're not gonna get much if any breakup.
That's why I said, he'd probably use pedals for his tone on either.



I don't know nutt'n about digital modeling so, I'll stay out of that dialog.
 
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PapaBear

Guit Fiddlier
A real Black Face or early to mid Silver Face (100 watt not the 135’s) should start to break up with the volume around 6 or so with a Strat and earlier with buckers, pickup output depending of course, and the mids at 3+. They should be pretty broken when dimed with most normal output pickups.

I have had a number of twins in my stable or on my work bench over the years and there is quite a bit of variation between them, but I have never had one that stayed clean when completely cranked. Put in some foam ear plugs and then some shooting muffs on top and crank it. It should get nasty...and so will your wife and neighbors.
I'm on 17 acres and Vikki encourages me to crank my amps, at 5 with a Strat mine gets that Jimi clean tone, my ears won't take it much above that
 

MarkDyson

Blues Hound Wannabe
Right,..........when you get into 100 and 200 watt amps, you're not gonna get much if any breakup.

Methinks this realm is where these amps break from being "just" SS amps: when you crank the gain into earbleed zones they break up like the tube versions (that was shown on a couple of the demos I saw), just like the "real" ones. The trick is (and this is why the attenuator dial matters) you can then dial the power back so you're still getting the same pushing into breakup but the apparent volume comes down into usable levels (IIRC one of the demos had it cranked around 8). Sort of like using a distortion pedal in reverse. At least that's my understanding of the tech.
 

Crossroads

Thump the Bottom
Methinks this realm is where these amps break from being "just" SS amps: when you crank the gain into earbleed zones they break up like the tube versions (that was shown on a couple of the demos I saw), just like the "real" ones. The trick is (and this is why the attenuator dial matters) you can then dial the power back so you're still getting the same pushing into breakup but the apparent volume comes down into usable levels (IIRC one of the demos had it cranked around 8). Sort of like using a distortion pedal in reverse. At least that's my understanding of the tech.
In a tube amp you need the signal to basically overload the tube so it distorts the waveform (aka breakup) Not a big problem in the pre amp but in the power amp of a high wattage amp, that becomes a very LOUD issue, which is why real attenuators were created for guitar amps.

In a non tube amp the DSP is creating the breakup, so a large analog waveform which creates a lot of volume, is not needed. Rather than use the attenuator they could have just used the two knobs on the right side of the mini above. In fact if the attenuator switch is fixed position, as opposed to a rotary dial, you actually have less control that way. Because now you have to pick a certain position like 2,5,10,20 as opposed to turning the dial to any position in the range.

So just a different way of accomplishing the same thing, and possibly may have made programming easier, because they could analyze the waveform, and compare it to the original amps, which back then, would vary from amp to amp. It also fits with the retro design of replicating the original amp.

I agree with the Captain, buy the amp if you want it, but no amount of methinking will change the architecture. :Beer:
 
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CapnDenny1

Student Of The Blues
This whole modelling business bothers me. It just seems so fake?

Chevy just announced that the 2021 Corvette will be an all electric car. It will have 4 speakers and a 2000W SS amp to simulate the sound of a 427cid V8. The drive control system will have a clutch lever and gear shift, that the system will use to simulate a 4 speed stick. (The Suzkui Burgman does that with the CV transmission, to simulate going through the gears.) I am trying to be goofy with this idea, but you know what, it would probably sell?

It doesn't matter, I can't afford a Corvette regardless, or even a new Burgman.

I will stick with my Twin re-issue however.
 
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