Ingraining Moves Between Scales

FrankL

Mr. Bites Off More Than I Can Chew
The omniscient one (Griff) put out a video yesterday with that title. So as usual I watched it. However, this time something clicked. I decided to try his sinister little experiment of changing scales without moving from the relative Am box one position. I found a backing track of Am, Dm, E to play over. It didn't take long to see both the Dm and Emaj pentatonic scales right there in the same position using the 5th string roots of D and E. So it turns out that it's Dm box 4 with D root is at the fifth string fifth fret . And the Emaj scale is box 3 with root on the 7th fret of the fifth string. With each chord change I didn't have move from the same spot on the fret board. A very cool revelation. I could actually see the position changes and knew exactly which scale notes I was playing and why. Oh and a side bonus, I found the very cool Dm arpeggio in the same spot as well as an Emaj chord on the top 3 strings in a (d-shape) at the fourth fret.

Up until this, I wasn't able to see the relationships of position and the notes that are shared by each of the scales in that position.

The only thing I'll add to this is, in order for this to happen, for me, I had to know what each of the other scale box patterns (other than box 1) were and could recognize what box I was playing. That has taken me a long time to memorize.

Here's a one take video noodling over the chords in the same position. Excuse any jazz notes or timings you might discover. (my objective, one day, is to play clean)

https://youtu.be/TJNbwelPdxs

Thanks Griff!
 

Ted_Zeppelin

I’ll agree with you so that both of us are wrong.
It’s a great feeling having a breakthru moment like this! 5th string root note scale were a huge lightbulb moment for me. Before that, I could not for the life of me figure out how to jump from box 1 up to box 3 or 4 without working my way up the fretboard. Box 4 (minor) and box 5 (major) using the 5th string root note really opened up the fretboard for me. Now I just need to keep practicing and building up my speed and consistency.

Enjoy your new found freedom on the frets:Beer::Beer::Beer:.
 

Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
The omniscient one (Griff) put out a video yesterday with that title. So as usual I watched it. However, this time something clicked. I decided to try his sinister little experiment of changing scales without moving from the relative Am box one position. I found a backing track of Am, Dm, E to play over. It didn't take long to see both the Dm and Emaj pentatonic scales right there in the same position using the 5th string roots of D and E. So it turns out that it's Dm box 4 with D root is at the fifth string fifth fret . And the Emaj scale is box 3 with root on the 7th fret of the fifth string. With each chord change I didn't have move from the same spot on the fret board. A very cool revelation. I could actually see the position changes and knew exactly which scale notes I was playing and why. Oh and a side bonus, I found the very cool Dm arpeggio in the same spot as well as an Emaj chord on the top 3 strings in a (d-shape) at the fourth fret.

Up until this, I wasn't able to see the relationships of position and the notes that are shared by each of the scales in that position.

The only thing I'll add to this is, in order for this to happen, for me, I had to know what each of the other scale box patterns (other than box 1) were and could recognize what box I was playing. That has taken me a long time to memorize.

Here's a one take video noodling over the chords in the same position. Excuse any jazz notes or timings you might discover. (my objective, one day, is to play clean)

https://youtu.be/TJNbwelPdxs

Thanks Griff!
You know, this is why I send out so many variations on the same theme...

One day I could show you this, and it wouldn't click... but it ruminates back there in the brain and the next time you hear it... it still doesn't click.

But one time, when you hear it again, it starts to sink in. There's no telling when that will be, but I've learned that no number of times is too many (except that I don't hardly look the same as I do in 10 year old videos now :)

Super excited for you, you're going to enjoy seeing the fretboard in a new way!
 

MikeS

Student Of The Blues
Staff member
Hey Frank,
I found the same thing, but haven't been able to make "music" with it yet.
Nice job!
 

FrankL

Mr. Bites Off More Than I Can Chew
Hey Frank,
I found the same thing, but haven't been able to make "music" with it yet.
Nice job!
Thanks Mike! Let’s see if we can find some time next week and make some music using this idea. Caveat: it’s necessary be able to recognize scales (major, minor and pentatonic) and associated positions on the fret board. That has been hard for me but as with anything repetition, repetition, repetition!
 

Randy S

Blues Junior
Hey Frank,
I found the same thing, but haven't been able to make "music" with it yet.
Nice job!
Try starting and ending with chord tones on each lick. I think you will find that no matter how simple the lick they will sound nice and melodic.

How do you find the chord tones? You can try to "see" the chord shape (or it's arpeggio) over the scale or just use your ear when you are practicing and begin to recognize in each shape where the chord tones are. The good news- the pentatonic scale, whether major or minor, is made up of 5 notes and 3 are chord tones- and a chord tone is always one note away, either up or down. So if your lick doesn't sound "resolved" go the next note- either way- and it should.
 

PCM

Spring, Texas
Knowing what is available directly under (or close) to your fingers with every chord change (especially those that don’t quite fit SHR rules) is an epiphany for guitarists...it is a big, big, big deal...it starts separating the pack.
 

PCM

Spring, Texas
GH has a few backing tracks that are mostly blues with a few interesting changes outside the standard “blues” genre.

An easy one that comes to mind is a track called “Like A Peach.” (Similar to, but NOT “Georgia.”).

It's mostly a slow blues in G with a B7 and A7 thrown in for added color and practice. :)

There are some sweet. sweet sounds you can make by knowing what's under your fingers when those changes come around. You can do both pentatonics (Gmajor/minor), Gmajor with some modal switching thrown in and also knowing the tone changes outside the key scale when the non-standard chords come around. I had to record myself to understand (can't hear it when playing...concentrating too hard). Wife actually came up to the top of the stairs to listen...it was cool.:):)

This concept that is being discussed and GH talked about in his video is a huge deal. Knowing what's under your fingers at a chord change is like a curtain being pulled back.
 
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PCM

Spring, Texas
There is another ongoing thread that discusses favorite solos.

In some of the solo examples submitted, you can hear the concept we're talking about on this thread.

Taking it one step further than being able to simply access the available scales under your fingers at chord changes, is the ability to use the common tones in the scale/chord that match the key/tone center of the entire song. You can hear it on the other thread. It's another layer of knowledge, but it really helps make solos fit the song seamlessly.
 

Randy S

Blues Junior
Ever since Griff first did the AAP session and then the follow-up blog/you tube lesson on this idea I have been noodling around on my guitar trying to get the concept under my fingers and in my brain. Been working with the chords in a key- associating chord shapes with pentatonic scales. Started in a single area/position of the fretboard and then started working on how to move across the fretboard.

Came up with a "system"/ approach using the most common chord shape/scale shape combinations. Thought it might be of use to others working on this idea so I have attached. Couldn't get it all on one page so you have to transition from page 1 to page 2. I think you will se how it works.
 

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PCM

Spring, Texas
Ever since Griff first did the AAP session and then the follow-up blog/you tube lesson on this idea I have been noodling around on my guitar trying to get the concept under my fingers and in my brain. Been working with the chords in a key- associating chord shapes with pentatonic scales. Started in a single area/position of the fretboard and then started working on how to move across the fretboard.

Came up with a "system"/ approach using the most common chord shape/scale shape combinations. Thought it might be of use to others working on this idea so I have attached. Couldn't get it all on one page so you have to transition from page 1 to page 2. I think you will se how it works.
You've got some good diagrams showing the major and minor relative roots in a given pentatonic pattern.

What you might try thinking about is playing by "pivoting around the root" in a song by "shifting" the patterns since most songs don't change keys or tone centers. Major pentatonic on the I and minor pentatonic on the IV and V means shifting patterns if the tone/key stays the same (hence, the root remains the same).

I can't explain it well as I'm not an instructor. There are others on this forum plus instructor extraordinaire @Griff who are far more capable.

It was a "guitar epiphany moment" for me many years ago when I finally saw how most blues players "shifted" (Clapton and many others come to mind). It really opened up the roadmap on the fretboard...finally understood the "what" and "how" (doing it "well," personally is another matter altogether).:LOL:
 
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Paleo

Student Of The Blues
What you might try thinking about is playing by "pivoting around the root" in a song by "shifting" the patterns since most songs don't change keys or tone centers. Major pentatonic on the I and minor pentatonic on the IV and V means shifting patterns if the tone/key stays the same (hence, the root remains the same).


What you are suggesting is simply(?) being able to play any "parallel" scale from any root note, which has always made more sense to me than memorizing all the "relative" roots in all the boxes. (Although you can certainly look at things that way.)

Attached is Griff's "Blues Cheatsheet" with options on what to play over each chord in a blues.

I've demonstrated each option over an A7 chord (E shape) as the I chord.

If you can do the same with the C, A, G & D shapes you're pretty much set.:)


https://dl.dropbox.com/s/fde2wj45sdnozgi/Blues Cheatsheet.mp4?dl=0
 

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PCM

Spring, Texas
What you are suggesting is simply(?) being able to play any "parallel" scale from any root note, which has always made more sense to me than memorizing all the "relative" roots in all the boxes. (Although you can certainly look at things that way.)

Attached is Griff's "Blues Cheatsheet" with options on what to play over each chord in a blues.

I've demonstrated each option over an A7 chord (E shape) as the I chord.

If you can do the same with the C, A, G & D shapes you're pretty much set.:)


https://dl.dropbox.com/s/fde2wj45sdnozgi/Blues Cheatsheet.mp4?dl=0
It always made a whole bunch more sense to me too! In fact, it was so logical in the way you and I described, I thought I was missing something when first exposed a zillion years ago

An instructor told me once it usually isn’t taught that way because it is a difficult concept to initially grasp. That may be, but it seems a whole bunch more common sense if one of the good-sounding things one wants to do is play major/minor sounds within the same key when doing blues...parallel scales are crucial for that...but what do I know?...just an old guy.:):):Beer:
 

Randy S

Blues Junior
I agree with you guys where the song is slower or the chords don't change often- i.e. Little Wing. But when the pace is faster and the chords are changing often-like the first two bars (I to IV) or the last two bars (I to V) of a quick change blues shuffle- and you want to have a phrase or lick that is longer than a single bar then you will need to change scale in the middle of the lick and changing positions on the fretboard is more problematic. Seems to me in that situation being able to "see" the relative scales for each of the chords in a single position is useful.

Griff has an AAP session this month on pentatonic vs diatonic soloing. Will be informative to get some approaches from the Master himself.
 

Randy S

Blues Junior
Here's a little exercise I like to do when I want to think "relativistically".

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/xamwqrg68slnjph/What key.mp4?dl=0

(I should have also mentioned correlating each scale/box to the appropriate Major, minor or 7 CAGED chord shape.)
I do the same exercise. but I expand it. For each of the six chords in a key (leaving out the dim 7th) I play in a single position:

-The full chord
-The triads in the chord (i.e. the "little chords")
-The pentatonic box that goes with the chord shape, starting and ending on the root
-The 7th arpeggio (Maj, min, or Dom) that goes with the chord

And then finally:

-The diatonic major scale in that position starting and ending on the root

It is a great exercise for learning all your shapes and how they relate to each other in a key.
 
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