Counting

[MatthewHonjo]

Can someone point me in the direction of how to learn to count. I have the general gist of counting and how to count notes. But need to be able to put it to practical use and be able to look at music and be able to count it and be able to hear the rhythm in my head and more importantly keep time while playing. Been working on the 2 bar licks and I can get close to the video but only because I keep referencing the video and imprinting the rhythm in my head. I have struggled with this my whole life since playing trumpet and french horn in my younger days.

 

[mountain man]

Huh, I played Coronet and French Horn in my younger days.

As far as counting? It's in most if not all of Griff's courses. Peal the onion one layer at a time and eventually you will get better at it. It's still a challenge for me too.

 

[MarkDyson]

FWIW, as an example, in Section 1 of the new "How To Jam the Blues Alone" course, for each of the 49 starting 1-bar licks, Griff counts through the four beats as he plays the lick. I'd be hard-pressed to find a better primer on counting along than going through that video. As @mountain man said, he does counting in many of his lesson material; I don't know that he does a discrete lesson anywhere in it, the technique is just an integral part of many of his lessons.

 

[MatthewHonjo]

Thanks for the responses. I have watched many of his videos where he counts you in and lets you know where he's at. It's still confusing me. So much going on all at the same time for my tiny brain. I think I may have figured out where I'm getting confused and maybe you can tell me if I'm right. For instance in his 2 bar lick at the top of the tab he shows that when two eighth notes are tied together it acts as if its a quarter and eighth note with a triplet feel? Or what I came up with, the first note is counted as 1&. The second note then is counted as "a". Is that right, does it even make sense the way I wrote it?

 

[mountain man]

The hard part of counting Blues is counting the shuffle. It's hard to look at 2 eight notes and think a 1/4 note and an 1/8th note counting the first 1/8th note as a 1/4 note counted "1 &". Followed by an 1/8th note counted "a". Sometimes triplets are easier to think about as each triplet note gets a count: "1" "&" "a". Sorry if this is not real clear.

 

[Chris L. Babcock]

Well I'm with you guys on this one...I have had a terrible time with counting and keeping time..Maybe has you guys have seen in the AAP sessions, my homework videos...Griff has been working with me on counting and picking...

 

[MarkDyson]

Methinks if you ask any three people about this you might get three different ways of looking at it. For my part I'm still very much trying to learn this, myself, but FWIW here's a peek into how I try to break a shuffle feel down....

I start with treating a 4/4 beat kind of like a waltz: ONE two three TWO two three THREE two three FOUR two three. Same thing as ONE and a TWO and a THREE and a FOUR and a.

In general the "two" or the "and" gets skipped, to give that heartbeat kind of result. So, if the lower case gets skipped, a basic 4/4 shuffle count might go like:

ONE and A TWO and A THREE and A FOUR and A...

There might be, of course, times when something actually happens on that "and," such as in many of the licks in the HTJBA course. To me, it's helpful to scribble some notes on the timeline and, in general, think of a 4/4 bar as actually having 12 slots into which you can stick stuff.

I hope I just haven't muddied the waters further.

 

[MatthewHonjo]

Thanks everyone. Now just to get it ingrained in my head.

 

[mountain man]

Methinks if you ask any three people about this you might get three different ways of looking at it. For my part I'm still very much trying to learn this, myself, but FWIW here's a peek into how I try to break a shuffle feel down....

I start with treating a 4/4 beat kind of like a waltz: ONE two three TWO two three THREE two three FOUR two three. Same thing as ONE and a TWO and a THREE and a FOUR and a.

In general the "two" or the "and" gets skipped, to give that heartbeat kind of result. So, if the lower case gets skipped, a basic 4/4 shuffle count might go like:

ONE and A TWO and A THREE and A FOUR and A...

There might be, of course, times when something actually happens on that "and," such as in many of the licks in the HTJBA course. To me, it's helpful to scribble some notes on the timeline and, in general, think of a 4/4 bar as actually having 12 slots into which you can stick stuff.

I hope I just haven't muddied the waters further.

I follow you on the Mark. Using the waltz analogy makes sense and I like it, but I probably wouldn't want to put all of those numbers in there. It's hard enough to feel what beat you are on and to put in 16 numbers in a measure to me might get confusing. In your last paragraph you mention that a note to play might come on the "and" of the count. This is most definitely with the triplets but Griff does point out one specific riff in the HTJBA course that the non-triplet note falls on the "and". Kinda like he is playing a little ahead of the beat..........

 

[MarkDyson]

I follow you on the Mark. Using the waltz analogy makes sense and I like it, but I probably wouldn't want to put all of those numbers in there. It's hard enough to feel what beat you are on and to put in 16 numbers in a measure to me might get confusing. In your last paragraph you mention that a note to play might come on the "and" of the count. This is most definitely with the triplets but Griff does point out one specific riff in the HTJBA course that the non-triplet note falls on the "and". Kinda like he is playing a little ahead of the beat..........

Cool. I haven't come close to watching all of those licks yet: I'm taking the suggested route of learning 3-4 of the first ones and then working on the groove. Add more licks later.

 

[mountain man]

Cool. I haven't come close to watching all of those licks yet: I'm taking the suggested route of learning 3-4 of the first ones and then working on the groove. Add more licks later.

I've been focusing on licks for a while with Griff's (and Steve Trovato) riff base courses so many of these licks are very familiar to me. Some are a bit tricky when you start sliding with the pinky and try to set yourself up to where you going on the fret-board. I've also been working on combining the Major and minor scale on the acoustic so this is kinda of what I've been doing only with more focus.

Again, the hardest part is the counting.

 

[Paleo]

.....he does counting in many of his lesson material; I don't know that he does a discrete lesson anywhere in it.....

Courses in which Griff has sections on counting:

1) Strumming & Rhythm Mastery - The entire course. (Lesson 6 covers "Swing")

2) Acoustic Blues Guitar Unleashed - Lessons 4 & 5 (Lesson 5 covers triplets)

3) Classic Rock Unleashed - Lessons 1 thru 5 (Lesson 5 covers triplets)

4) Pentatonic Scales & Technique Mastery - pages 17 & 18 on timing

5) How To Read Music On The Guitar - Parts 1 thru 7 (Part 6 on Swing)

 

[MarkDyson]

I've been focusing on licks for a while with Griff's (and Steve Trovato) riff base courses so many of these licks are very familiar to me. Some are a bit tricky when you start sliding with the pinky and try to set yourself up to where you going on the fret-board. I've also been working on combining the Major and minor scale on the acoustic so this is kinda of what I've been doing only with more focus.

Again, the hardest part is the counting.

Yeah, it's all challenging for me, but these 1-bar chunks seem to intimidate me less so I feel like I'm making progress sooner than with other offerings. One very useful thing for me right now is to go over one of the first few licks and then relate it to the minor pentatonic. That removes the boxes from the abstract and makes the topic practical (for me).

I do also very much enjoy the aspect of having to plan ahead for which fingers to use so as to set up for later stuff. That's also very useful for my beginner bass forays.

 

[MarkDyson]

Courses in which Griff has sections on counting:

1) Strumming & Rhythm Mastery - The entire course. (Lesson 6 covers "Swing")

2) Acoustic Blues Guitar Unleashed - Lessons 4 & 5 (Lesson 5 covers triplets)

3) Classic Rock Unleashed - Lessons 1 thru 5 (Lesson 5 covers triplets)

4) Pentatonic Scales & Technique Mastery - pages 17 & 18 on timing

5) How To Read Music On The Guitar - Parts 1 thru 7 (Part 6 on Swing)

And your status as Librarian Emeritus remains secure, sirrah.

 

[patb]

Thanks for the responses. I have watched many of his videos where he counts you in and lets you know where he's at. It's still confusing me. So much going on all at the same time for my tiny brain. I think I may have figured out where I'm getting confused and maybe you can tell me if I'm right. For instance in his 2 bar lick at the top of the tab he shows that when two eighth notes are tied together it acts as if its a quarter and eighth note with a triplet feel? Or what I came up with, the first note is counted as 1&. The second note then is counted as "a". Is that right, does it even make sense the way I wrote it?

Yes. Play the lick as slowly as necessary to count it . It doesn't matter. The first reference I remember to this is in BBGU, BGU or the Acoustic lessons when Griff talks about the triplet sound in "Blues in E" .
It finally really came to me in the Jamming the Blues Alone course. Counting is worth the time and frustration. I'm still working on it but getting it slowly.

 

[Paleo]

Count beats....play notes.

 

[TerryH]

I find counting over a slow blues when the lick is out of time by far the hardest. I often find that I can only count the beats between the licks. Trying to get the timing and feel of the lick right and keep track of a different beat at the same time is a task too far for me. At least with a shuffle you are in the same time as the beat.

 

[david moon]

Well a couple of thoughts here. The shuffle or swing feel is 12/8, or four beats per measure with each beat divided in triplets.

Counting: 1 & uh 2 & uh 3 & uh 4 & uh

As Mark noted, quite often in the rhythm, the & is not played and you get just the number and the uh, but still in time. Chunk uh Chunk uh, the Chunk lasts for 1&, etc.

And just to make it more confusing, in standard notation, we sometimes see a "shorthand" where the chart will say "play 2 eighth notes as if the first was the first 2 notes of a triplet and the last was the third note of the triplet". That reduces clutter in the chart but then if they want something on the &, they have to write it out with eighth note triplets.

I'm sure there are some examples in Griff's courses- I'm just not going to look right now.

I have had some occasions in playing theater music to ask if this should be played with a swing feel or "straight" feel if the chart wasn't clear.

 

[david moon]

If you are visually oriented you might try this

 

[Al F]

One thing can be said, you are in good company with many of us. It has taken me a very long time to get to the point where I can count but only in a controlled exercise.

The techniques used in How to Improvise finally got me counting. Here you focus on the individual licks. You take a lick and you listen to it while counting. Once you have that down, you play it while counting.... a lot. You then play it over a backing track, using it in each measure of the 12 bar blues format. Once you have that down, you move onto the next lick. After you have 3 licks, you start putting them into a 12 bar blues format, moving them around all the while counting. By the time you get to this point, the counting and the lick exist in your head as one memory. Your are counting and not even thinking about counting.

You can use this technique with any course.

The good news is it gets better the more you work at it. Hope this helps.

Al