What normally happens at Jams?

johnc

systematic
I have never been involved in jams or open mic nights for all the years I have been messing around with music. It seemed that I was just involved with a band at any given time where we had a song list to work to and learnt that material as required.
So yeah, intros, outros, all the middle bits and instrumentals in between all in their place. Now that suits me because I must admit that I prefer to have that sort of organisation and know what is next. I have been both a drummer and a guitar player in this band environment

But! I haven't played much for a few years now and only recently joined a local fledgling Blues Club to try and get out and experience some guitar playing. Now they don't really play complete songs, just mostly jam along to familiar bits of common blues songs and everyone up playing as in Guitar pickers, harp players, keyboards, singers, whatever all having a go at playing and improvising whatever.
I went along to try and improve my confidence and playing on my guitar but guess what, they have no drummers, lots of guitar pickers and harp players, one or two bass players so I was stupid enough to say that I can play drums to help them out so that seems now where I am stuck. Playing drums to lots of improvised part songs and other guitar players messing around and no opportunity it seems for me until another drummer turns up.

Anyway even if I get the opportunity, not sure whether I can take to the random jamming as I have never done it, there tends to be a lot of noise going on with multiple instruments coming in and out, seems confusing!!
I would really like to be able to get out and do a bit of guitar playing again and this seems the only potential opportunity at present
I would appreciate some advice, experiences on an approach to this sort of thing.
Thankyou in advance..
 

david moon

Attempting the Blues
Is there anyone "in charge"? Who decides who gets up and plays, and how many? Who calls the tunes?

If you are relegated to drums, and that's not what you want, you need to quit and look for other outlets. Advertise for local jam mates or to get into a band
 

TwoNotesSolo

Student Of The Blues
Or just let them know how you feel.
Ideally you should take turn soloing, with everyone doing rhythm when it's not their turn, or staying out of playing till it's their turn. I used to go to a jam club kind of things where only 3 guitars and one bass were allowed at a time and taking turn, other guitars had to be silent or strum chords fully muted so they sounded more like drums (there were no drummers either). We did have a leader that would indicate whose turn it was and get people to quiet down for each other, listen to each other (the guy would also sing the songs).
 

Marv

I play 'err' guitar.
I haven't really been to many jams where people just get up and try to play partial songs. More open mics, which are usually moderated a bit, as David suggests.

Usually, the host runs a sign-up sheet where everyone indicates what they'd like to play, whether they are willing to do vocals, etc. From this list, often made up of people the host usually knows something about, the host assembles little "bands," much like the groups we have at BGU Live, to get up and do two or three songs. The host tries to put newcomers with more experienced players so the song, as a whole, will stand up. There will usually be a drummer, a bass player, a couple of guitars, harp, keys and horns, if they are available.

The vocalist generally gets to pick the tunes and instructs the players about tempo, key, etc. prior to the song starting. The vocalist chooses where the solo breaks will be and indicates, usually by pointing, when it's your turn to solo. Everyone else is supposed to contribute without being in the way. Things seem to go best when the vocalist picks songs that are 12-bar blues. The most common deviations from this are when a number of the players have played together before and they know they can pull off something off the beaten path.

Here's an open mic example from the Orange County Blues Players feature our own Dr. Ron in the spotlight:

The host, in the cap, is the other guitar player.

Because most of us have been to open mics, most the "little" BGU jams we have run like this too. The guy willing to sing controls the song. We try to limit the number of guitars onstage to no more than a dozen or so. :Beer:
 
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david moon

Attempting the Blues
I haven't really been to many jams where people just get up and try to play partial songs. More open mics, which are usually moderated a bit, as David suggests.

Usually, the host runs a sign-up sheet where everyone indicates what they'd like to play, whether they are willing to do vocals, etc. From this list, often made up of people the host usually knows something about, the host assembles little "bands," much like the groups we have at BGU Live, to get up and do two or three songs. There will usually be a drummer, a bass player, a couple of guitars, harp, keys and horns, if they are available.

The vocalist generally gets to pick the tunes and instructs the players about tempo, key, etc. prior to the song starting. The vocalist chooses where the solo breaks will be and indicates, usually by pointing, when it's your turn to solo. Everyone else is supposed to contribute without being in the way. Things seem to go best when the vocalist picks songs that are 12-bar blues. The most common deviations from this are when a number of the players have played together before and they know they can pull off something off the beaten path.

Here's an open mic example from the Orange County Blues Players feature our own Dr. Ron in the spotlight:

Because most of us have been to open mics, most the BGU jams we have run like this too. The guy willing to sing controls the song.
At the OC Blues Jam. that was how it worked . Griff called the song , we were along for the ride.
 

johnc

systematic
Thanks for that feedback Gents. What you are saying makes sense and it does sort of work along those lines here but it is early days I guess for this group and they need to tighten it up a little with a bit better organisation and control .
I know there is a harp player there for example who seems to think it is OK to play away in the background through much of the song along with other soloists and singers but I know that would confuse me being hard to concentrate on my own melody thoughts and it sounds like a jumble of unpleasant sound when that happens. I don't want to upset anyone by saying "please don't play".
In the absence of anyone else, I will do the drums for a while because I do actually enjoy some drumming, but it isn't exactly why I am going so I hope that they will give me a fair go down the track.
To be honest I don't feel quite ready to get up and jam along on guitar, but I will probably always feel that way so I know I will just have to try it out.

A couple of questions:

So if I decide to get up and play guitar backing myself on vocals would that mean that I would need to try and direct the band also?

How long do the jams you go to run for as an average, number of hours?

Marv was saying that jams tend to stick to 12 bar blues format but that seems to get a bit repetitive over say 3 - 4 hours. I would like to do a few blues songs that are a bit of a change from that, wondering how to best broach the subject with them, because I would still like the band to back me. Mind you I don't have a drummer yet anyway and it would be nice to have one to help keep it all together.
 

TwoNotesSolo

Student Of The Blues
Yup what Marv describes is more or less "the norm". In most jams I attend there is a "house band" that can provide the missing roles (e.g. drummer, we seem to have a dearth of those).

Even with 12 bar you can get a lot of variety in rhythm, key, feel. Throw in some breaks for variety (e.g Kansas City), just make sure the leader or vocalist calls them out. Or go all minor chords (All your Love). And then there are the classics like the Thrill is Gone that are probably safe too. Some like Stormy Monday are frought with peril, everyone seems to have their opinion on which version is "right"

Most jams around Denver are interminable. Most run 8:00pm to 11:30pm or later, and it's not uncommon to wait 2 hours to get your 15 minutes in stage.
 

johnc

systematic
Thanks, well when I mentioned partial songs I was perhaps exaggerating a little but I was meaning a song with no decent Intro or Outro and too often many of the little interesting bits skipped over.
Pretty much all songs are lacking bits but one comes to mind from the last jam, SRV's "Pride and Joy" No guitar player knew the intro or played any of the accents or signature licks through the song, the guitar solo was nothing like SRV would do. Guitar tone for that song was nothing like it, just over distorted for me. Even the rhythm was not quite right although I was doing my best to drive it. So it just seemed like an excuse to jam to something and no justice to the song IMHO. Very frustrating sitting on the drums, thinking "even I would be doing a better job of of the guitar bits" or at least try and make it sound a bit more like it.
So is that the norm?
Mind you there are some very skilled players there, far more advanced that me on guitar, they just seem less interested in playing complete songs or worrying about minor things like starts and stops signature licks etc.

What is it with Harp players? is that the norm to have an excess of them who want to play in every song, their turn or otherwise.

From a drumming perspective, it is a combination of all the parts of a song and the changes that make it more interesting for me. Otherwise it is just very much picking up with who ever kicks off and sitting on a groove while everyone else has a shot at playing something (hopefully creative and interesting) So I can understand why drummers are not all that keen in these types of jams, hauling a drum kit, setting up and pulling down with 3 - 4 hours of playing along with seemingly minimal appreciation. As a drummer, in most cases I have always learnt my songs arrangements, tempo and rhythm etc. play them accordingly and the band follows my cues from start to end. So it feels a bit weird trying to follow other instrument players other than when I might be learning a song they wish to do. So I guess that is what it feels like, always in learning mode, not performing mode. Similar to backing solo artists I guess.
I imagine it may be similar for bass players as well although they would have a bit more creative freedom.

Well anyway as I was saying, it is getting me back doing some playing even if some drumming for now and I am not trying to be a whiner. I will try and have some input to get things a little better hopefully without upsetting anyone.
If I want to play some of my tunes on guitar and want drums behind it, I might have to take my edrums along with my drumming prerecorded. I could imagine that would go down well..or not?

Thankyou for all your kind advice my BGU friends.
 

Norfolk Bill

norfolk uk, just knoodling along
i think its a different beast here in the uk,, hell the ones ive been to there have been no singers so it was just a case of blues in ,,,,whatever lol
 

david moon

Attempting the Blues
There is a difference between an "open mic" format and a "Jam". At an open mic, you could go in with your own group, or backing track, or e-drums and do a few songs. I've gone into open mics with a bass, and hooked up with a guitar player on the spot, and thrown together a few songs. But it was our choice to play together.

In a jam, usually there is someone in charge, putting groups together. You sign up and indicate what instrument you play. The person in charge may know the players and put together groups that he thinks will work. Often the singer will be the "leader" and call the tunes and parcel out solos.

Players that don't know how to back off and leave space (whether guitar or harp) are a real problem.

I don't know if your "jam" would be amenable to putting up a group that asks to be together- which you could do based on what you have heard at the previous jams. Maybe the beginning of a band?

As far a being stuck on drums because there is no one else- I have no solution to that.
 

LosBassMan

"Bottom Feeding since 1996"
I know the feeling of being stuck on the drums--I get stuck on the bass almost all the time also--the problem is that there are so many guitar players and very few bass players around here, we seem to have a surplus of drummers and singers also.

Carlos
 

johnc

systematic
Thanks billrand, but how would one get through hours of that and keep it interesting for everyone by just jamming in whatever key or tempo? Music needs to take me on a bit of a journey, not just around in circles if that make sense. Jamming along to a backing track at home just to get ones chops happening is useful but when playing with others I would have thought that there should be more point to it and putting all those things that ones learns into a basic structure. Not sure how I would go with that.

Thanks David, yeah I think this group I am with do a bit of both open mic and jam style like you are saying but I don't think backing tracks are encouraged. Pretty sure it has to be all live playing.
Yes to do something I want to, I will have to enlist a couple of willing participants, so it will take a little time for me to get to that point.

At this place we play, there is a bar and restaurant so the general public are sitting around as well as the blues club participants and company. So it would seem good to make some attempt at playing some music that people can relate to better but still with opportunities for players to do their thing at the right time..
I guess it is a jam because there is no specific polished band as such, just different ones walking up doing there bits. Some sing, some play instruments, we even had a trombone player. So it is interesting from that point of view.
I am just trying to get my head around it all and see if I can fit in OK and deal with the spontaneity and looseness of it all.
Ideally I would like to see the guys form a reasonably tight core band with a good repertoire of classic blues songs and play a set of 3 or 4 songs to kick things off and then back others as needed with their song choices or even just a jam in E if you like. Sit off have a beer when soloists and others want a turn.

Would that put people off getting up if the band sounded too polished?

How do you guys feel at BGU live when getting up after Griff and his band have played a few?
Although I am sure that Griff would do everything to encourage everyone regardless.
 

johnc

systematic
Hi Carlos, yes what is it with these one instrument players, one would think that it would be good to learn just some basics to jump on the bass or the drums, giving themselves a bit of variety and a more rounded experience.
You can send some of your spare drummers over, they have to be good though ;)
 

Norfolk Bill

norfolk uk, just knoodling along
you cant get through it john thats why i dont bother anymore, it was just to play with people that i went to them, as blues is so easy to do (to a standard)and you dont really need to know the songs, so decided to form a band to play with,,though not blues :)
 

david moon

Attempting the Blues
I think having a core house band rhythm section is a great idea. If they open with a few numbers it should be an inspiration not intimidation. They should also cede to any drum or bass that wants to play.
 

Dale

Blues Newbie
[Q

What is it with Harp players? is that the norm to have an excess of them who want to play in every song, their turn or otherwise.

I play a little harp and every harp site I have been to emphasizes laying back when others are singing or soloing. It seems that a lot of harp players and banjo players love to hear their instruments at full volume.
 

tommytubetone

Great Lakes
John, I think you are describing something that is different from the jams I attend. The host band is just that......an established band. It sounds like you have not so experienced people hosting the jam. After awhile, the host bands here know where everyone is at in their journey and bring people up with the intent of giving them a positive experience while still entertaining the paying customers. When I started, they just added me to the band so in case I screwed up they could still cover for me. Things change. I went to a jam tonight and my group had nobody from the host band up there.

.
 

blackcoffeeblues

Student Of The Blues
Just the thought of A banjo makes me cringe. That is the one instrument that drives me up the wall. I have played in BLUEGRASS bands
and that Banjo steps on everything and everybody.
 

johnc

systematic
It is just such a big change from working in a band where one has a lot more control and discipline to what seems like a loose wall of noise at times. There have been some really competent players get up and they seem to take better control of things so I assume that they are a lot more experienced at jams/open mics and know how to handle the noisier ones. I have enjoyed backing those guys somewhat more, we can learn from them. I just hope that they keep coming along.
I hope that they can work towards having this core band even if I have to be the drummer in that regard would be OK. I may be able to get up and play some guitar among the other jammers. I am thinking that any opportunity to get out and be involved is far better than sitting at home dwelling on it.

Thanks again for all your replies.
 
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