Theory Question Concerning Multiple Guitars

[luvtheblues]

Hi Griff!

First off I love your teaching style and have pretty much all of your courses…I just need to buckle down and do them like they’re meant to be done. LOL

I either had an epiphany the other day or I am so confused that I am beyond hope. Now I have been playing guitar for my personal pleasure for over 45 years but just in the last few years have I paid any attention to understanding music theory. Now it’s my understanding harmony is the chords correct? So I was wondering if this thought process would work or if the sound would just be muddied up too much?

Say you’re in the key of C for simplicity and doing a chord progression (any progression) but I’ll use the I-IV-V since blues is the main topic but I’m just using the major not 7th in my example. So the chords are C-F-G. Now on the I chord if you have say 2 guitars (or 3) if guitar 1 plays the “root chord” of C and guitar 2 plays the 5th chord the G (if 3 guitars guitar 3 plays the 3rd E) and you follow that formula with each chord of the progression will it harmonize well or sound crappy? If my theory understanding is correct this would essentially have the root-3rd-5th for each chord being played using a chord on the combined guitars to sound like one big chord. I hope that makes sense what I’m trying to say. I really have no way to test it except in my small theoretical brain. LOL

Thanks for All You Do!

 

[Jalapeno]

Hi, I'm not Griff but take a look at the triads for the three chords, assuming the chords are diatonic (meaning E minor and not E) you'd have CEG - EGB - GBD if three guitars played that you have CEGBD which is a Cmaj9th chord.

C is the root
E is the major third
G is the fifth
B is the major 7th. In the blues the dominant 7th is used (also called the flat 7th) so it is not going to sound bluesy by using the major 7th
D is the 9th.

I hope that helps.

PS, depending on the voicings each of the guitars play, it could sound good or it could sound like mud

 

[luvtheblues]

Thanks for your input Jalapeno I appreciate it...

I guess my example wasn't well stated. 1st all guitars tuned standard tuning. And I was only in this example using the major tri-tones for the chord progression of I-IV-V for simplicity in key of C major the chords would be the C - F - G. So using 3 guitars with each one playing a chord as one of the tri-tones the I chord you would have gtr 1 playing Cmaj, guitar 2 playing E maj (the major 3rd) and guitar 3 playing the G major chord. The remainder of the progression would follow the tri-tones of each of the chords as my example for the I chord, just switching to chord tones of either the F maj or G maj chords. So chord tones of each chord of the progression being used. I understand the not sounding bluesy part without a dominant 7th but I was just trying to simplify my example as much as possible. I also figured if you only used 2 guitars the 2nd guitar would only play the 5th since I didn't think a root and 3rd alone would sound as good compared to a root and 5th in an all major progression. Hopefully I was a bit clearer this time.

 

[Jalapeno]

Hi luvtheblues, I understood what you are saying, I think.... , but E major has a G# in it which is why I assumed the chords were diatonic because the G in the C major chord and the G in the G major chord mean you can't have a G#. If you changed that to an Ab you could assume it was a flat 11th but then the 3 guitars together would be playing Cmaj9b11, which may be useful in some contexts but sounds pretty crappy to my ears just by itself

 

[PapaRaptor]

There's no better way than to hear it.
There are 3 guitars playing here. On one side the guitar is playing a I-IV-V in C (C-F-G)
In the middle is a guitar playing a I-IV-V in E (E-A-D)
On the other side is guitar playing a I-IV-V in G (G-C-D)

Three chords.

 

[luvtheblues]

Thanks Jalapeno and paparaptor...appreciate your inputs. I gotta think this one out a bit more...but I definitely see what you're saying now Jalapeno and it probably would clash and become something I didn't intend it to become. So much for an epiphany I guess! LOL

 

[johnc]

It is good that you are thinking about it, plenty of knowledge on the forum so it's good to ask questions.

 

[HotLks]

Luvtheblues -

While you're thinking this out I have a suggestion that may be helpful. It's not technical but will draw your attention to the successful technical application of harmony. Listen to a cappella singing groups. They are masters of harmony. Some things should become clear when you hear how they work with the harmony rules.

Another good place to look would be Lynyrd Skynyrd. Don't they have at least 3 guitars? They play harmony regularly.

See you down the road!

 

[OG_Blues]

If you really want to do a deep dive into this subject, the book "Harmony For Guitar" might be for you - available at amazon here
http://www.amazon.com/Harmony-Guitar-Magazine-Project/dp/0711923884
It provides a very broad, general music education as well.
I'm trying to understand a practical use or situation where you would do what you are suggesting.
Analyzing the use of harmony done by singing groups or bands with multiple guitars like HotLks suggests may be helpful, but such analysis is generally not done in terms of multiple different combined chords, but rather the various extensions or alterations of a single chord, also referred to as the "key center", referring to the fundamental or primary underlying chord. Some such alterations can get quite complex, and in some cases might possibly be the combination of two or more different chords, but that's not the common perspective people use.
As far as harmonizing a melody line, that is often done by more than one guitarist, and there are even effects pedals that will do things like automatically add the 5th to whatever you are playing. There are pedals that will do that with vocals as well. I don't think that's what you are getting at though.
Tom

 

[OG_Blues]

By the way, when I first saw the title of the original post, I thought someone was questioning if there was, in theory, some limit to having multiple guitars. The answer, of course, is obvious.
Tom

 

[artyman]

I play with a couple of other guitarists and frequently use a different chord voicing so we create different sounds

 

[luvtheblues]

Thanks to all who have replied to me...It's much appreciated. I was trying to really think outside the box on this and just couldn't get rid of the thought of 3 guitars playing just a root-3rd-5th in sync with each other to harmonize only instead of single notes using the chords instead...it just seemed theoretically workable but I didn't consider all the extra tones involved that would muddy up a sound.

 

[Jalapeno]

By the way, when I first saw the title of the original post, I thought someone was questioning if there was, in theory, some limit to having multiple guitars. The answer, of course, is obvious.
Tom

 

[luvtheblues]

I've seen that before actually in a couple of videos. LOL Pretty wild actually. But aren't "most" of the people playing the same chords....I'm sure some are using other voicings etc... I think I'm going to just have to sit down and lay down 3 tracks and see what happens with them all playing at the same time just to appease my brain.
Thanks Jalapeno!

 

[artyman]

I wonder how long it took to tune up

 

[KiloMike]

Only mildly related, but when I was in the choir at Auburn (over 20 years ago), we would sing an a capella arrangement of the national anthem that was arranged by the band director, Johnnie Vinson. It was an interesting arrangement where each phrase started on the note on which the previous phrase ended (e.g. "gleam-ing" and "whose" shared the same note) so you end up changing keys several times. The most interesting part was that on the word "free", if you analyzed the parts, the women were singing a Bb Major chord, and the men were singing a C major chord (I may have that backwards...). So you end up with Bb, C, D, E, F, and G all at the same time. Now, if you go play that on a piano, it sounds horrible. But in that arrangement, because of the distance of the voices and the way the parts approached the chords, it was absolutely beautiful. I still can't explain why it worked...

 

[OG_Blues]

..... So you end up with Bb, C, D, E, F, and G all at the same time. Now, if you go play that on a piano, it sounds horrible. But in that arrangement, because of the distance of the voices and the way the parts approached the chords, it was absolutely beautiful. I still can't explain why it worked...

Well, I think you already explained why it works quite well!
If you play those notes as a chord on the guitar in a different inversion, it sounds just fine. Assume it's a C root and change the order to C E Bb D and that much is the very common C7/9 chord. Add the 4th degree, the F on top on the first string, and it sounds fine. If you could add in G, it would still sound ok because G is a chord tone of C. Yes, I know, that's a bugger to finger!
People that listen to or play any amount of jazz develop ears that are accustomed to highly altered chords, and after a while, most of them sound good. When one or more of the voices are moving, it can be really pleasing. There are entire books written the subject of voice leading for guitar, and it's a fascinating aspect of the instrument IMO. It works well for vocal harmonies as well, for the reason you state.
Tom

 

[jmin]

I just can't figure out why you need three guitars if your all only playing one note.
Use horns! They only play one note! I never heard of a "Guitar Section!"

 

[KiloMike]

Well, I think you already explained why it works quite well!
If you play those notes as a chord on the guitar in a different inversion, it sounds just fine. Assume it's a C root and change the order to C E Bb D and that much is the very common C7/9 chord. Add the 4th degree, the F on top on the first string, and it sounds fine. If you could add in G, it would still sound ok because G is a chord tone of C. Yes, I know, that's a bugger to finger!
People that listen to or play any amount of jazz develop ears that are accustomed to highly altered chords, and after a while, most of them sound good. When one or more of the voices are moving, it can be really pleasing. There are entire books written the subject of voice leading for guitar, and it's a fascinating aspect of the instrument IMO. It works well for vocal harmonies as well, for the reason you state.
Tom

In truth, Music Theory/Composition was my major (so naturally, I make my living as a computer programmer and manager for a major healthcare organization ), so I know, or at least used to know , how the analysis works (which you did a beautiful job explaining ) and why the notes are "correct", but I have never been able to satisfactorily explain to myself why that chord (or others like it) actually sound pleasing to the ear in certain inversions, and like a hot mess in others. That chord in particular, which, granted, I was exposed to very early in my music education, always vexed me specifically because it wasn't utilized in passing to another chord. It anchors the end of the musical phrase and we were occasionally guilty of what was called, in my barbershop quartet days, as "chord worshiping" and holding it a bit longer than necessary because of how wonderful it was. The mix of the strong sonorous harmony of the 2 triads and the tension between them just "worked" in a way that never made sense to me. I guess your tagline sums me up pretty well, in that I don't really understand everything that I know!

Cheers!

 

[mountain man]

In truth, Music Theory/Composition was my major (so naturally, I make my living as a computer programmer and manager for a major healthcare organization ), so I know, or at least used to know , how the analysis works (which you did a beautiful job explaining ) and why the notes are "correct", but I have never been able to satisfactorily explain to myself why that chord (or others like it) actually sound pleasing to the ear in certain inversions, and like a hot mess in others. That chord in particular, which, granted, I was exposed to very early in my music education, always vexed me specifically because it wasn't utilized in passing to another chord. It anchors the end of the musical phrase and we were occasionally guilty of what was called, in my barbershop quartet days, as "chord worshiping" and holding it a bit longer than necessary because of how wonderful it was. The mix of the strong sonorous harmony of the 2 triads and the tension between them just "worked" in a way that never made sense to me. I guess your tagline sums me up pretty well, in that I don't really understand everything that I know!

Cheers!

Congratulations to you Mike!! My brother has a Phd in Music Theory/Composition and he is driving a taxi. You are doing well!!