Key? I still don't know dif between Amajor and Aminor

[mountain man]

When I played Louie, Louie (by the Kingsmen) in our college band, i.e. for drinks, we'd play it for what seemed like hours. I was mostly on the bass, but then I moved on to the 6 strings of a Strat. Now that I'm retired I have more time to devote to learning more about playing. Music theory is fascinating. In this thread I have no idea what most of you guys are talking about but it sure does sound impressive. I did put down the basic progression (G , C, and Dm) on my looper and was playing box 1 over it. It sounded okay, but it probably has some errors in it. I found a site with a music teacher instructing a class of college kids on scales and what they look like on sheet music. For instance, take the scale starting with C. C D E F G A B C no sharps or flats. Then start with F. F G A Bb C D E F only one flat. He showed the formula of WWHWWWH W-whole step H- is a half step. And so on. Fascinating. Now I know these are not pentatonic scales, they are the old "do, ray, me scales" I'm going to have to look at Griff's music theory course. Thanks guys for trying to help me out. And I thought the key of a song was what note or chord it started on. I got a lot to learn.

Those Do Ray Me scales you are referring to are know as the Diatonic scales. (7 notes). When you say you were playing box 1 with the looper, was it box one in the Maj or min scale? Box 1 G-Maj would have the tonic on the 3rd string open. Box 1 G-min would have the tonic on the 6th string 3rd fret. If you were playing it off the nut it should have sounded great!!

 

[giayank]

Just when you think you know something you realize you know enough to be corrected . Thanks Paparaptor . I looked from the perspective of the solo . This discussion was from the perspective of the key in which the song is in and if it's major or minor . I'm so glad the forum is up and running again . I'm once again in full learning mode . I'd give this a thumbs up but I don't know how to do that either . LOL

 

[OG_Blues]

I'll just make a general observation here.
This is absolutely not meant in any way to be critical of the OP (strick), or of anyone else that has offered guidance - it is simply an observation I believe to be true.
Sometimes, when a person has limited knowledge of a subject matter, but has a question about it, it is difficult to pose the question in the terms that would elicit an accurate and meaningful response, i.e. to get the correct "answer" that can be understood. I have found myself in that position many times - not knowing enough about a subject to ask a question about that subject properly. This usually just results in ongoing confusion.
I think that's what we have going on here. There are lots of "answers" and good information and discussion, however, I feel like we have still not really answered strick's question to his satisfaction - but I think he will come to understand it in due time - there are a number of "moving parts" that have to converge, and that doesn't always happen instantly.
But hopefully the discussion is still good for one and all.
Tom

 

[PapaRaptor]

Actually, it usually is the chord you start on that determines the key, at least in the blues, the key word being "usually." There are obvious exceptions.
Starting "on the five" means you're starting at the tail end of a (non-existant) sequence, where you start with a measure of V, a measure of IV and then back to the I (and any turn around in the song) before starting at the beginning of a 12 bar progression.

It's a lot of work to explain what is in essence a very simple concept.

What you're talking about with the Do, Re, Mi, stuff is the major scale.

Based on the music teacher site you saw, you may already know your keys are arranged from C, which is no flats and no sharps.
They go in exactly this order for "sharp" keys.

• C - No sharps
• G - One sharp, which is F#
• D - Two sharps, which are F# and C#
• A - Three sharps, which are F#, C#, and G#
• E - Four sharps, which are F#, C#, G# and D#
• B - Five sharps, which are F#, C#, G#, D# and A#
• F# - Six sharps, F#, C#, G#, D# and A#, and G#

You might start to notice a pattern here.
"Flat" keys:

• C - No flats
• F - One Flat, Bb
• Bb - Two flats, Bb and Eb
• Eb - Three flats, Bb, Eb, Ab
• Ab - Four Flats, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db
• Db - Five Flats, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb
• Gb - Six Flats, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb (which is actually B)

Arrange that a little differently and the pattern becomes a little more obvious.

• Gb - Six Flats, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb (which is actually B)
• Db - Five Flats, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb
  
• Ab - Four Flats, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db
  
• Eb - Three flats, Bb, Eb, Ab
  
• Bb - Two flats, Bb and Eb
  
• F - One Flat, Bb
• C - No sharps
• G - One sharp, F#
• D - Two sharps, F# and C#
• A - Three sharps, F#, C#, and G#
• E - Four sharps, F#, C#, G# and D#
• B - Five sharps, F#, C#, G#, D# and A#
• F# - Six sharps, F#, C#, G#, D# and A# and E# (which is actually F)

The keys of Gb and F# are actually the same key, but written in a different notation.

Gb Major scale:	Gb	Ab	Bb	Cb(B)	Db	Eb	F	Gb
F# Major scale:	F#	G#	A#	B	C#	D#	E#(F)	F#

This still doesn't tell you how to tell a major key from a minor key, but you can always tell your 1-4-5 from this list by picking your 1. The way this is arranged, your 4 will always be directly above the 1 and the 5 will always be directly below the 1.

 

[tommytubetone]

This is somewhat on topic, so I'll throw it out there. They played "I'd Rather Go Blind" at a jam I was at awhile ago. It was in the key of A, so I played the A minor pentatonic scale when it was my turn to solo. It sounded like crap. I wasn't smart enough to try playing the major scale over it, and basically waved off the rest of the solo. The major scale is the way to go with this song, and a lot of other songs also. How would you know? A guitarist I really respect and is a great player offered this tip. When the song starts, try playing the the minor and major scales in the background to see which one will work. Then when it's your turn to solo, you will know what to do.

 

[PapaRaptor]

I just tried that and you're absolutely right, Tom. The melody is all major. I imagine the fact that it's strictly a I-ii progression has a lot to do with it, but that's theory I haven't gotten to yet!

 

[mountain man]

This is somewhat on topic, so I'll throw it out there. They played "I'd Rather Go Blind" at a jam I was at awhile ago. It was in the key of A, so I played the A minor pentatonic scale when it was my turn to solo. It sounded like crap. I wasn't smart enough to try playing the major scale over it, and basically waved off the rest of the solo. The major scale is the way to go with this song, and a lot of other songs also. How would you know? A guitarist I really respect and is a great player offered this tip. When the song starts, try playing the the minor and major scales in the background to see which one will work. Then when it's your turn to solo, you will know what to do.

What about taking your solo in Maj over the 1 chord and then min over the 4 and 5 chords? That is basically what Griff does in the Maj and min Blues Shapes course he has out. This would basically be up to 8 bars in Maj and 4 bars in min........

What I find interesting is that Griff has been emphasizing the min scale in most of his "skills development" courses except the Maj min Blues Shapes and the Blues Supplement and the epiphany now appears to be the Maj scale? Heck I started with the Maj diatonic before I found BGU. How many times have we seen the "block 1" for the minor scale shown.........?

I still trying to get my arms around this.......... more to come!

 

[PapaRaptor]

What about taking your solo in Maj over the 1 chord and then min over the 4 and 5 chords? That is basically what Griff does in the Maj and min Blues Shapes course he has out. This would basically be up to 8 bars in Maj and 4 bars in min........

For a 1-4-5 that works just dandy. The song Tommy was talking about is only two chords. There is no 4 or 5 only a 1-2 or more accurately a I-ii. Here's an old Etta James version.
I've seen chord sheets that show more than two chords, but the guitar part on it is basically two chords. The bass line and a bit of noodling on the keys is what makes the other chords. It's like saying that SRV's version of Pride and Joy uses a different chord on each beat because the bass is walking down the scale. In the most strict sense, the chord is being changed by the bass line, but the guitar plays the same I chord on P&J.

Listen to this version of I'd Rather Go Blind with a guitar in hand and see if you can't play along only going back and forth between A and Bm.

 

[tommytubetone]

What about taking your solo in Maj over the 1 chord and then min over the 4 and 5 chords? That is basically what Griff does in the Maj and min Blues Shapes course he has out. This would basically be up to 8 bars in Maj and 4 bars in min........

What I find interesting is that Griff has been emphasizing the min scale in most of his "skills development" courses except the Maj min Blues Shapes and the Blues Supplement and the epiphany now appears to be the Maj scale? Heck I started with the Maj diatonic before I found BGU. How many times have we seen the "block 1" for the minor scale shown.........?

I still trying to get my arms around this.......... more to come!

For a 1-4-5 that works just dandy. The song Tommy was talking about is only two chords. There is no 4 or 5 only a 1-2 or more accurately a I-ii. Here's an old Etta James version.

Thanks Lloyd. A major and Bmin7 work well in this song. Anyway, the tip is still valid, since sometimes not a lot of information is exchanged before the song starts up.

 

[PapaRaptor]

Tommy, I just edited that post a bit.

 

[Norfolk Bill]

Still not sure we are on about general guitar playing, ie general songs or blues

 

[Strick]

Just in response to one of the replies, I truly believe there is no bad question except the one you don't ask. I think I've exposed my lack of knowledge here. But this forum is still my favorite because you guys always try to give me, and others, good answers and tips. After going through this thread again, I see I have to do a little homework and you guys have given me a direction, and vocabulary, to look for the information. Thank you very much for that.

Now my next point I need to straighten out. Lets say I'm playing my song Louie,Louie again. (Gmaj,Cmaj, and Dmin) I start out with a barre chord of G major on the third fret. I use box 1(minor) with the root on the E string at G and then noodle around box 1 and sometimes jump into box 2. My first question is: Is this considered in the key of Gmaj? I think it sounds pretty close to the recording, but am I using the correct box and root? I promise to explore more of the music 101 lessons.

 

[PapaRaptor]

Just in response to one of the replies, I truly believe there is no bad question except the one you don't ask. I think I've exposed my lack of knowledge here. But this forum is still my favorite because you guys always try to give me, and others, good answers and tips. After going through this thread again, I see I have to do a little homework and you guys have given me a direction, and vocabulary, to look for the information. Thank you very much for that.

Now my next point I need to straighten out. Lets say I'm playing my song Louie,Louie again. (Gmaj,Cmaj, and Dmin) I start out with a barre chord of G major on the third fret. I use box 1(minor) with the root on the E string at G and then noodle around box 1 and sometimes jump into box 2. My first question is: Is this considered in the key of Gmaj? I think it sounds pretty close to the recording, but am I using the correct box and root? I promise to explore more of the music 101 lessons.

No thanks necessary. We're all here to share what we know and learn what we don't. I learn something here every day.

To your next point. Yes, your solo is Box 1 Minor Pentatonic in G, over a song in G major. That's really a cornerstone of the blues.

 

[giayank]

box one on the third fret is Gm . You would play box two with the start of the box on the third fret of the E string for major . This overlap of boxes is where you can mix minor and major tones . It may be why you hear notes that are working for you in this area of the fretboard .

 

[mountain man]

For a 1-4-5 that works just dandy. The song Tommy was talking about is only two chords. There is no 4 or 5 only a 1-2 or more accurately a I-ii. Here's an old Etta James version.
I've seen chord sheets that show more than two chords, but the guitar part on it is basically two chords. The bass line and a bit of noodling on the keys is what makes the other chords. It's like saying that SRV's version of Pride and Joy uses a different chord on each beat because the bass is walking down the scale. In the most strict sense, the chord is being changed by the bass line, but the guitar plays the same I chord on P&J.

Listen to this version of I'd Rather Go Blind with a guitar in hand and see if you can't play along only going back and forth between A and Bm.

Great tune Lloyd! That was fun. Then what came up on you tube was Gov Mule's version in F Gm. That was fun hanging out at the 10th fret for a while............ This tune would be a good open mic tune.

 

[Cowboy Bob]

Good stuff here

 

[Strick]

No thanks necessary. We're all here to share what we know and learn what we don't. I learn something here every day.

To your next point. Yes, your solo is Box 1 Minor Pentatonic in G, over a song in G major. That's really a cornerstone of the blues.

Thank you. I just printed out all the boxes 1-5 in major and minor. It seems like the only difference between them is where you put the root notes. What a difference in moving box 1 up just 3 frets.

 

[OG_Blues]

Just in response to one of the replies, I truly believe there is no bad question except the one you don't ask. I think I've exposed my lack of knowledge here. But this forum is still my favorite because you guys always try to give me, and others, good answers and tips. After going through this thread again, I see I have to do a little homework and you guys have given me a direction, and vocabulary, to look for the information. Thank you very much for that.

Asking any question inherently implies two things - a lack of knowledge, and a willingness and desire to gain knowledge. Together, these are admirable.
I'll point out my byline again as being pertinent here. Knowledge and understanding are two different but related things. Knowledge usually comes first, (hopefully) followed by understanding. The understanding part sometimes has a long delay time, during which time the knowledge can still be put to good use!!! This REALLY applies to music IMO.
Great discussion going on here.
Tom

 

[mountain man]

Thank you. I just printed out all the boxes 1-5 in major and minor. It seems like the only difference between them is where you put the root notes. What a difference in moving box 1 up just 3 frets.

Just fingering. I think that you will find when you solo you will find that little boxes of 4 to 6 notes are all over the fret board. It's not always convenient to move a box up or down 3 frets and use a different root not. For me, it just orients the box differently.

 

[Steve_Sawyer]

I just printed out all the boxes 1-5 in major and minor. It seems like the only difference between them is where you put the root notes.

Bingo!! Not "seems like", "IS". The 5 patterns remain the same, but because you're playing it in a different position on the fretboard, the root note falls at a different place for the particular pattern. Note too that the root AND 5th still are part of the pattern, and note that the 3b and 7b of the minor pattern are replaced by the 3rd and 6th (thus it loses that minor sound).

Also, pursuant to comments above about some of our answers possibly adding to your confusion, my earlier post referring to the "key" of Louie Louie, or the "key" of most blues songs being major, I was referring to the key signature that would appear on the notation. This is different than talking about the "key" of a chord, which really isn't accurate I don't think - chords have roots, not keys. As we play through a I-IV-V blues progression, we're not changing key, we're simply changing the chord that we're playing within that key.