setting levels, amplitude/gain question

Elwood

Blues
Once again I reveal my lack of understanding in the form of a question.

When you sit looking at your song project on the DAW, you have all your tracks and you have your mixer. I realize that you do the gain staging and apply automation to the track, I mean the overall track output level here.

Is there any difference between adjusting the levels up on the track or using the slider on the mixer for that channel?

If not, great! If so, an explanation would be appreciated. I do not mind being pointed to a source if this is deeper than I suppose. (I believe this will be the same situation and solution regardless of any DAW that I might use)

Appreciate it :coffee:.
 
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CaptainMoto

Blues Voyager
Once again I revel my lack of understanding in the form of a question.

When you sit looking at your song project on the DAW, you have all your tracks and you have your mixer. I realize that you do the gain staging and apply automation to the track, I mean the overall track output level here.

Is there any difference between adjusting the levels up on the track or using the slider on the mixer for that channel?

If not, great! If so, an explanation would be appreciated. I do not mind being pointed to a source if this is deeper than I suppose. (I believe this will be the same situation and solution regardless of any DAW that I might use)

Appreciate it :coffee:.
I believe the answer is this:

If you adjust the gain on a track, that gain boost or cut is pre-fader .
The faders on your project mixer control the output level.
If you raise the gain on the track, you are bosting the gain going into the mixer (controlled by the faders).

Adjusting the gain on the track would be similar to adjusting the gain on your interface, the resulting track level would be higher or lower than you might desire so, you would make your volume corrections with the mix faders.

In many instances making adjustments to track gain vs fader volume can give you the same final results.
Understanding pre and post fader in your DAW can get a little confusing and each DAW might behave differently so, I'd say search up pre & post fader behavior for your DAW.
 
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Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
Where this might come in to play more is with plugins...

Gain will come before plugins, so if you have overdrive from a plugin, and you increase gain, you'll get more overdrive, but no increase in volume!

Similarly, if you have compression as a plugin, you'll hear increased compression, but not much increase in volume.

If you have good levels when you record, there's no real need to play with gain after the fact, unless you want to do something specific. For volume, stick to faders :)
 

Elwood

Blues
Where this might come in to play more is with plugins...

Gain will come before plugins, so if you have overdrive from a plugin, and you increase gain, you'll get more overdrive, but no increase in volume!

Similarly, if you have compression as a plugin, you'll hear increased compression, but not much increase in volume.

If you have good levels when you record, there's no real need to play with gain after the fact, unless you want to do something specific. For volume, stick to faders :)
Great, thanks Griff! This fits in nicely with the compression and EQ videos I am taking notes on. That sequence of events may have been part of the reason I experience inconsistent results from my recordings. I am trying to get out of the feeling that I am throwing darts, with a blindfold. :)
 

CaptainMoto

Blues Voyager
Where this might come in to play more is with plugins...

Gain will come before plugins, so if you have overdrive from a plugin, and you increase gain, you'll get more overdrive, but no increase in volume!

Similarly, if you have compression as a plugin, you'll hear increased compression, but not much increase in volume.

If you have good levels when you record, there's no real need to play with gain after the fact, unless you want to do something specific. For volume, stick to faders :)
Hmm,
I need to digest that............I'm thinking gain will always increase volume.:unsure:

@Elwood,
As I think about this, one example of using gain vs volume fader is as follows:

First start with this fact; when using your faders the amount of volume change as you slide up/down is not linear.

Meaning, the incremental adjustments are larger as you move the fader down, consequently small adjustments towards the bottom of the fader scale have a much greater impact than fader movement at the top of the scale. ( look at the scale)

Having said that, it is best to start your mixes with the fader levels at Zero, that gives you more precise control over the adjustment up/down.

So, if you happen to record a very high gain track, you'll probably need to adjust the volume on the fader way down so it does not overwhelm the rest of the tracks in the mix.
However, doing so, would cause you to be making volume adjustment with very little precision, because incremental changes are lager at the bottom of the fader scale.

In this situation you might want to adjust the gain on the track to bring the volume more inline with the other tracks before you start mixing,
You would want to adjust the track gain so the volume on the fader meter is close to zero, then your mixing moves would be more precise.

Fader.jpg
 

Elwood

Blues
the incremental adjustments are larger as you move the fader down, consequently small adjustments towards the bottom of the fader scale have a much greater impact than fader movement at the top of the scale.
A log scale as opposed to linear, got it.

It sounds like there are two different situations, if I understand.

If I am mixing a previously recorded track, then I would adjust the track gain before the fader.

If I am in the process of recording, then - going as early as possible in the sequence of events - I would want to get my source gain down to some acceptable level (maybe -10db or so?) that leaves enough headroom for plug ins on the track and the combined effect of all the tracks when they get to the master track.

I think it is starting to make sense....(I think I get what @Griff is saying too, injecting more gain into each plug in would result in each plug in doing more with the signal before passing it on. I'm thinking something with that can build up and kind of sneak up on you and create unwanted effect, like compression for me, that is a thing and I need to consider it when working)

I appreciate all the info!!! :coffee:
 

Jack

Blues Junior
Well that's interesting, I never realized that increasing the master volume would send a stronger signal to the plugins, thereby changing their sound. Maybe that's why my mixes tend to sound kind of wonky. I shall keep that in mind for future reference :)
 

Elwood

Blues
the master volume
I think terminology can bite us. Using the "pre and post fader" concept, I believe that "master volume" would refer to the level at the last stage of the workflow - post fader.
I think that Griff is talking about pre-fader, up where the signal is still running on the track ("gain will come before plug ins"), and that pushing the gain up on the signal coming into the track will produce the effect you refer to on the plug ins.
I think that's right.
 

CaptainMoto

Blues Voyager
A log scale as opposed to linear, got it.

It sounds like there are two different situations, if I understand.

If I am mixing a previously recorded track, then I would adjust the track gain before the fader.

If I am in the process of recording, then - going as early as possible in the sequence of events - I would want to get my source gain down to some acceptable level (maybe -10db or so?) that leaves enough headroom for plug ins on the track and the combined effect of all the tracks when they get to the master track.

I think it is starting to make sense....(I think I get what @Griff is saying too, injecting more gain into each plug in would result in each plug in doing more with the signal before passing it on. I'm thinking something with that can build up and kind of sneak up on you and create unwanted effect, like compression for me, that is a thing and I need to consider it when working)

I appreciate all the info!!! :coffee:
I think you're moving in the right direction with this thinking.
The best path to a good mix is to start with good tracks.
The source, is of course, the most important element and your recording technique is the next step in getting a good track.

About headroom for plug ins:
Generally speaking, whether it's compression or O/D, it's a good practice to gain match.
That means, monitor the level going into the plugin and adjust the output level to match.
The plugin should deliver it's effect without boosting the volume ( unless, volume boost is your intent).
 

Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
Consider this, as well, another scenario...

If you increase the gain on a vocal track and it has a reverb send, you're going to increase the amount of material sent to the reverb as well, which you may, or may not want. In general practice you would not want that, but I'm sure there are instances for everything.

Also be aware that if you increase gain to the point where it clips something in the plugin chain you'll get an ugly surprise that can be difficult to figure out.
 

PapaRaptor

Father Vyvian O'Blivion
Staff member
Consider this, as well, another scenario...

If you increase the gain on a vocal track and it has a reverb send, you're going to increase the amount of material sent to the reverb as well, which you may, or may not want. In general practice you would not want that, but I'm sure there are instances for everything.

Also be aware that if you increase gain to the point where it clips something in the plugin chain you'll get an ugly surprise that can be difficult to figure out.
That's why you put the reverb on a bus and Send the vocals to it as well as the Mains.
 

BraylonJennings

It's all blues
My understanding is the interface sets the gain recorded onto the track. Adjusting the track gain envelope increases the gain going into your insert effects (plugins) which affect the gain going to your faders. The faders control the gain going into the mix. In a vocal track, I do volume leveling via track gain automation so that I can have a consistent volume going into any compressors, insuring I get light compression on more of the vocal, not just the loudest peaks. Works the same on any type of track. Helps hit the sweet spot on amp sims like Scuffham sgear, though many plugins have input gain adjustments.
 

BraylonJennings

It's all blues
To Moto's point on easier mixing with the faders at 0db, I put a mixtool (using StudioOne) as the last effect in the inserts and adjust so as to bring faders to zero, for fine tuning. Easier than adjusting clip gain and doesn't mess with the other insert effects.
 

CaptainMoto

Blues Voyager
My understanding is the interface sets the gain recorded onto the track. Adjusting the track gain envelope increases the gain going into your insert effects (plugins) which affect the gain going to your faders. The faders control the gain going into the mix. In a vocal track, I do volume leveling via track gain automation so that I can have a consistent volume going into any compressors, insuring I get light compression on more of the vocal, not just the loudest peaks. Works the same on any type of track. Helps hit the sweet spot on amp sims like Scuffham sgear, though many plugins have input gain adjustments.
I also do quite a bit of gain/volume adjustment to my vocals on the track and then apply compression to the entire track (y)

About the interface setting the gain:
That is true however, the gain can also be adjusted on the input of the channel as well as on the track itself.

This stuff can get confusing because the terms gain, volume and loudness are often used to describe the same thing.
 

PapaRaptor

Father Vyvian O'Blivion
Staff member
Well that's interesting, I never realized that increasing the master volume would send a stronger signal to the plugins, thereby changing their sound. Maybe that's why my mixes tend to sound kind of wonky. I shall keep that in mind for future reference :)
It depends on what you are calling the master volume. Unfortunately, that could mean several things. This is where it can get confusing, sometimes even to those of us who use DAWs on a daily basis.
INSERTS are pre-fader plug-ins.
What will affect the operation of INSERT plug-ins is the actual level of the input (or recorded track).
  • The track fader will have no effect on the operation of the plug-ins.
  • Normalizing the track will affect the operation of plug-ins.
  • Any other method of raising or lowering the level of an already recorded track will affect the operation of plug-ins.
 

Elwood

Blues
  • Normalizing the track will affect the operation of plug-ins.
  • Any other method of raising or lowering the level of an already recorded track will affect the operation of plug-ins.
That may have been my undoing on some tracks in the past and I had no clue.

Whew, I really appreciate all the discussion. I have been reading all of your posts, looking at you tube, looking up stuff on the internet,,,This really made me aware of some things that have almost certainly caused me to just walk away from a few projects. Like the harder I work the worser it got. Moto, Griff, Jack, Papa, Braylon, thanks to all! Watching how much goes to the sends as I change the gain, matching levels before and after plug ins, and the vocal tips, great stuff for me!
Now to see how well I can apply this to my next project. :thumbup:
 

Jack

Blues Junior
It depends on what you are calling the master volume. Unfortunately, that could mean several things. This is where it can get confusing, sometimes even to those of us who use DAWs on a daily basis.
INSERTS are pre-fader plug-ins.
What will affect the operation of INSERT plug-ins is the actual level of the input (or recorded track).
  • The track fader will have no effect on the operation of the plug-ins.
  • Normalizing the track will affect the operation of plug-ins.
  • Any other method of raising or lowering the level of an already recorded track will affect the operation of plug-ins.
I use Reaper, and when I say "master volume" I just mean the fader on the master track.

I was under the impression that the master track came after everything else, for instance I'll put Ozone 8 on the master track and I thought those effects were just going after the other effects which I had already put on each track, and so I assumed the fader on the master track was acting in the same way, and not sending a stronger signal to the tracks?

I'll use the track faders to get the volume of the tracks adjusted in relation to each other, then I'll render it and see what the peak volume is, then I'll use the master volume slider to adjust that peak so it's just below clipping and render it again.

Does that sound right?
 

PapaRaptor

Father Vyvian O'Blivion
Staff member
I use Reaper, and when I say "master volume" I just mean the fader on the master track.

I was under the impression that the master track came after everything else, for instance I'll put Ozone 8 on the master track and I thought those effects were just going after the other effects which I had already put on each track, and so I assumed the fader on the master track was acting in the same way, and not sending a stronger signal to the tracks?

I'll use the track faders to get the volume of the tracks adjusted in relation to each other, then I'll render it and see what the peak volume is, then I'll use the master volume slider to adjust that peak so it's just below clipping and render it again.

Does that sound right?
Yes, that is exactly right.
 
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