Using a major scale over a major chord

BoogieMan

Blues Junior
I'm starting a new thread to get some help understanding this section of the manual mentioned by Paleo in another thread...

There is a short section in Lesson 13 of "GTMU" on pages 59-60 entitled "Why You Can't Just Use A Major Scale Over A Major Chord".

This section answers the question...

“If I have a C major chord, don't I just use a C major scale?”

My comment was...

"I get that playing the G major scale from the 4th degree (C) gives you C lydian but I still don't see how playing the C major scale over a C major chord (regardless of whether it's functioning as a lV chord) could be a problem. Of course, if you were trying to play a G major scale over the C major chord, the F# would clash. Maybe I'll get it some day like you did."

The response was...

"If C is a IV chord you're in the Key of G. The F# over the C chord becomes a #4, creating the C Lydian sound.

If C is a V chord you're in the Key of F. The Bb over the C chord becomes a b7, creating the C Mixolydian sound.

You can, of course, play the C Major pentatonic over a C Major chord, regardless of function..

In general, the Major scale played over each chord in the Key will produce a different "modal" sound."

I'm starting to see a glimmer of light but no bulb yet. I understand getting the modal (lydian) sound if you are playing the G major scale over the C chord. But the the question from the manual refers to using the C major scale over the C major chord, not the G major scale. I always thought that it would be safe to use the major scale of the chord over which you were playing (not just the major pentatonic of that chord). I think this is where I get confused.
 
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Paleo

Student Of The Blues
The manual is asking why you can't just always play the C Major scale over a C Major chord.

If the C chord is the I, you can play the C Major scale over it (and all the other chords in C Major).

If it's the IV in G or the V in F, you can't.

G Major has an F# and F has a Bb, both notes not in the C Major scale.

Playing C Major over a C functioning as a IV chord in G Major is going to clash every time you play an F that should be an F#.

Playing C Major over a C functioning as a V chord in F Major is going to clash every time you play a B that should be a Bb.

C Major pentatonic has no F or B so no clash regardless of the C chords function.


In general:

Any time a Major chord is the I chord you can play the Major scale of the I chord.

Any time a Major chord is functioning as a IV chord, playing the Major scale of the I chord will sound/be Lydian.

Playing the Major scale of the IV chord the 4 of the scale will clash with the 7 of the Key.

Any time a Major chord is functioning as a V chord, playing the Major scale of the I chord will sound Mixolydian.

Playing the Major scale of the V chord the 7 of the scale will clash with the 4 of the Key.

Playing the Major pentatonic of a Major chord will avoid any clash since it doesn't have a 4 or 7.

More tomorrow. Time for bed. :sleep::sleep:
 
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Paleo

Student Of The Blues
...the the question from the manual refers to using the C major scale over the C major chord, not the G major scale.

The manual (Griff) is suggesting you would not use the C Major scale over a C Major chord if the C chord is in the Keys of G or F and you would use the G Major and F Major scales, respectively. ;)


Standard Harmony Rule: In a Major Key the I, IV and V are Major.

A C Major chord can be the I in C, the IV in G or the V in F.

The C Major chord has a different function in each of the 3 Keys.

FUNCTION is the whole point of the section and finally understanding function lead to my comment in the other thread.


If the C chord is the IV in G, you'd play the G Major scale over it (and all the other chords in the Key of G).

The F# of the G Major scale will be a #4 in the C chord harmony. (Lydian)

If you play a C Major scale over it, the F will clash with the F# of the Key.


If the C chord is the V in F, you'd play the F major scale over it (and all the other chords in the Key of F).

The Bb of the F Major scale will be a b7 in the C chord harmony. (Mixolydian)

If you play the C Major scale over it, the B will clash with the Bb of the Key.


Or in short....

If you're in the Key of G you play F#'s, not F's.

If you're in the Key of F you play Bb's, not B's.
 
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Paleo

Student Of The Blues
In another thread someone once said:

"You mean in the Key of C I have to play C Ionian over the C chord, D Dorian over the Dm chord, E Phrygian over the Em, F Lydian over the F, G Mixolydian over the G, A Aeolian over the Am and B Locrian over the Bmb5?":eek:

Answer: Playing the C Major scale you already are. ;)
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
You may also want to spend some time with the chart on page 70 in Lesson 14.

Just look at the very first "Common Chord" on the right and note the Function and Mode in the first 2 columns. :sneaky:
 

BoogieMan

Blues Junior
OK the dawn is breaking, it's early morn...

If the C chord is the IV in G, you'd play the G Major scale over it (and all the other chords in the Key of G).

Not sure I agree with this statement. I don't think you want to be playing the G major scale over the D and C chords. The F# in the G major scale would definitely clash with the F note in the C major chord.

The F# of the G Major scale will be a #4 in the C chord harmony. (Lydian)
If you play a C Major scale over it, the F will clash with the F# of the Key.

I think this part of your answer explains it the best for me. It sounds like it's not a question of actually playing the note. For example if you are playing the C major scale over the C major chord, you will not be playing an F# note. But I think you (and Griff) are saying that because you are in the key of G, the key is expecting an F# note and therefore the F note of the C scale may not be the best note to play, even though it won't clash with any of the notes of the C major chord. Am I on the right track here?

Or in short....

If you're in the Key of G you play F#'s, not F's.

If you're in the Key of F you play Bb's, not B's.

Or you can play G major pentatonic which contains neither. Since the key is "expecting" an F# note, this may not be the best scale to use either. I think I'm going to have to actually work this out on the guitar and see what my ear tells me.

Edit: I think it's starting to sink in now. If you're playing G major pentatonic, you are not playing either the F or the F# note avoiding a potential dissonance. Maybe this is what I have been missing.
 
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BoogieMan

Blues Junior
This now makes sense. When "playing the changes" you try to target chord tones of the chord you are playing over. Over the C chord, you would only target the notes of the C major triad (C E G) which does not include either F or F#.
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
I don't think you want to be playing the G major scale over the D and C chords. The F# in the G major scale would definitely clash with the F note in the C major chord.

There is no F in a C Major chord (C E G)

Chords in G Major: G Am Bm C D Em F#mb5

Any time all the chords of a progression are all from the same Key you can play the Major scale of the Key over every chord.

The G Major scale will sound Ionian over the G (I), Dorian over the Am (ii), Phrygian over the Bm (iii), Lydian over the C (IV), Mixolydian over the D (V), Aeolian over the Em (vi) and Locrian over the F#mb5 (viib5).

Even though G is the tonal center of the Key, the tonal center changes to a different note of the G Major scale with each chord, creating a different mode over each chord.
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
I think you (and Griff) are saying that because you are in the key of G, the key is expecting an F# note and therefore the F note of the C scale may not be the best note to play, even though it won't clash with any of the notes of the C major chord. Am I on the right track here?
If you are in the Key of G, F simply isn't.

Playing it will sound "off".

Disclaimer: When we say you "can't" play a note....we mean it ain't gonna sound "good".

Of course you can play anything you want....if you don't mind not sounding "good".
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
When "playing the changes" you try to target chord tones of the chord you are playing over. Over the C chord, you would only target the notes of the C major triad (C E G) which does not include either F or F#.
You can always target chord tones or play arpeggios or the appropriate Major or minor pentatonic of the chord.

However, once again, depending on the function of the chord, you can play the other appropriate non-chord tones that are within the Key.
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Let's take the chords in C Major

C Dm Em F G Am

We won't play F Major over the F or D minor over the Dm because they both have a Bb not in the Key of C.

You could, however, play F Major pent and/or D minor pent over either or both because they are relative.

(You could always play chord tones or arpeggios.)

We won't play G Major over the G or E minor over the Em because they both have an F# not in the Key of C.

You could, however, play G Major pent and/or E minor pent over either or both because they are relative.

You could play A minor over the Am because it is relative to C Major.


Playing the C Major scale over each chord in C Major will be C Ionian over C, D Dorian over Dm, E Phrygian over Em, F Lydian over F, G Mixolydian over G, A Aeolian over Am and ever B Locrian over Bmb5.
 

BoogieMan

Blues Junior
If you are in the Key of G, F simply isn't.

Playing it will sound "off".

Disclaimer: When we say you "can't" play a note....we mean it ain't gonna sound "good".

Of course you can play anything you want....if you don't mind not sounding "good".

This makes the most sense to me. In the final analysis it is your ear that will determine if a note or set of notes sounds "good". Thanks Paleo.
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
However, once again, depending on the function of the chord, you can play the other appropriate non-chord tones that are within the Key.

Let's extend the triads in C Major starting with C Major.

A=13(6)
F=11(4)
D=9(2)
B=7
G=5
E=3
C=1

Extending Dm:

B=13
G=11
E=9
C=b7
A=5
F=b3
D=1

b3 and b7=Dorian Mode

Extending Em:

C=b13(b6)
A=11
F=b2
D=b7
B=5
G=b3
E=1

b2, b3, b6, b7=Phrygian Mode

If we continue with F, B will be a #11 (#4)=Lydian

Extending the G chord, F will be a b7=Mixolydian

In Am, C=b3, G=b7, F=b13 (b6) = Aeolian

For Bmb5, D=b3, F=b5, A=b7, C=b2, G=b6 = Locrian
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
In the final analysis it is your ear that will determine if a note or set of notes sounds "good".

One final thought and I'll let it go.

In a Blues progression we can play the minor pent of the "I" chord over all 3 Dom7 chords.
None off the notes will be "wrong".

However, treating each chord as a "I" we can figure out which notes will sound "best" over each chord.


Similarly, in a diatonic progression we can play one scale over everything, the Major scale of the Key.
None of the notes will be "wrong".

However, treating each chord as a "I" we can figure out which notes will sound "best" over each chord.

Theory gives us options that will "work".

Our ear always tells us what we "like". :)
 

BoogieMan

Blues Junior
One final thought and I'll let it go.

In a Blues progression we can play the minor pent of the "I" chord over all 3 Dom7 chords.
None off the notes will be "wrong".

However, treating each chord as a "I" we can figure out which notes will sound "best" over each chord.


Similarly, in a diatonic progression we can play one scale over everything, the Major scale of the Key.
None of the notes will be "wrong".

However, treating each chord as a "I" we can figure out which notes will sound "best" over each chord.

Theory gives us options that will "work".

Our ear always tells us what we "like". :)

Agreed. If you are playing the G major scale when the lV chord (C) comes up, the F# will sound dissonant (lydian) but if played as a passing tone, it will sound fine. The jazzers would even encourage this to create more tension. According to them, you can play pretty much any note you want as long as you land on a chord tone. Glad you brought this up in the other thread. I kind of passed over that section without really digging into it.
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Just when I thought I was out....they pull me back in.
 
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Paleo

Student Of The Blues
You know I can't just give this up.

The main reason I like answering other members' questions is that it makes me dig a little deeper and I always learn a bit more myself.

And anyone who "knows" me, knows I can get quite obsessive on these quests.

Until I feel the issue is "resolved".

This one ain't resolved , yet.

So, I've come up with a way to demonstrate some of this stuff.

Stay tuned for the video edition. :)
 

BoogieMan

Blues Junior
Sounds good Paleo. I've been working this out on the guitar and honestly, playing C lydian over the lV chord in a G blues just doesn't sound right unless you play the F# as a passing tone. To my ear, playing C major scale over the C major lV chord sounds nicer. I'll be interested in watching your video. I think it will explain things much better.
 
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