Song/Progression Analysis

[Griff]

Hi All,

Okay this is the official thread for analyzing songs. As I've said before, one of the primary reasons for learning theory is to be able to look at a group of chords and know what key they are in (by key signature) and what the tonal center is, and what scales would be good fits for improvising.

So I'll try to make this is a sort of "master list" for songs that you want to try and analyze, or want me to analyze. Obviously I'd like your take on them, but if you're lost or can't figure them out, I'll jump in.

I'll do the first one, and you can see the general format that works.

Song: 25 or 6 to 4 by Chicago.
Changes for the solo (or whatever section you want): Aminor G D/F# F E
Analysis:
A natural minor over Amin and G, A dorian over the D/F#, A natural minor over the F, A harmonic minor over the E.

Here's why - the A minor G, and F all fall really well into that standard A minor pattern of i, VII, VI (or vi, V, VI if you look at them as C major.)

The D/F# trips things up but it's a common move that allows the bass note to just walk down. If you take the A natural minor scale and only change the F to F# to make that D/F# chord happen, you create A dorian.

The F is cool, and then since the E is major it's a major or dominant V chord in a minor key - that means harmonic minor every time.

If changing scales like that is too hard, just use A minor pentatonic until the E and then grab the harmonic minor.

One other tune that has this same change is "Lay It On The Line" by Triumph. It's only in one part of the solo, but it's there. I've heard it in other places too, but that's the one I can think of off the top of my head.

So there you go - give it a shot
Griff

 

[Blues_Man]

i saw this thread the 1st day and was numb with fear as i had no idea what griff was on about,

so i let it sit for a few days and there has been no posts with a few folks having a peak inside,

i'm curious if the others felt like me, if so griff, can we start with simple simple please as i'm interested in learning

cheers

 

[wgabree]

Hey Blues Man - I have an idea.  If you pick a song we can have a go at it together on this thread - or on a separate thread.  Might be some fun!

 

[Blues_Man]

great idea wayne i'm all for it,
but to tell you the truth i wouldn't know an easy song from a hard  one in this topic,
i'll probably pick the hardest,
do you know an real easy one for starters?

 

[wgabree]

great idea wayne i'm all for it,
but to tell you the truth i wouldn't know an easy song from a hard  one in this topic,
i'll probably pick the hardest,
do you know an real easy one for starters?

Start with some pop song - perhaps a early Beatles song...

 

[Blues_Man]

ok Beatles it is

here's a great one

I Feel Fine

 

[wgabree]

ok Beatles it is

here's a great one

I Feel Fine

based on this tab:

http://www.songsterr.com/a/wsa/beatles-i-feel-fine-guitar-tab-s2822t0

We have the following chords:

D C G Bm Am

Name the Key and the numbers for each chord (I, II, V, etc)

 

[Blues_Man]

Key G

G  A  B  C  D  E  F  G
I  ii  iii  IV V

 

[wgabree]

Key G

G  A  B  C  D  E  F  G
I  ii  iii  IV V

Make the F an F# and it's perfect!

G A B C  D E F# G
I  ii iii IV V

Now, where I'm still challenged is the stuff about what scales and modes can be used over the progression based on the harmonic analysis.  I usually try minor pentatonic for the key.  If that doesn't sound right, I try major pentatonic.

Also, I know that any chord tone is usable while that chord is in force.

And I've learned on keyboard that for a bluesy sound, I can play thirds from the mixolydian mode of the root of each major chord.  So, on G I can use the G mixo, on C the C mixo, and on D the D mixo.  This is because mixo is the scale source of the 7th chord (naturally occurs on the V chord - mixo mode).

The more I learn, the more useful every detail becomes!  That's why I keep reviewing the basics.

 

[Sparky]

Now, where I'm still challenged is the stuff about what scales and modes can be used over the progression based on the harmonic analysis.

  Wayne, Here would be my approach to what scale to use.
The key is Gmaj. I ask myself 'What is the chord built around?'  The difference between a major chord and a minor chord is either a major 3rd or minor 3rd. My question for you is what do we have in Gmaj?

 

[Griff]

Now, where I'm still challenged is the stuff about what scales and modes can be used over the progression based on the harmonic analysis.

  Wayne, Here would be my approach to what scale to use.
The key is Gmaj. I ask myself 'What is the chord built around?'  The difference between a major chord and a minor chord is either a major 3rd or minor 3rd. My question for you is what do we have in Gmaj?

For soloing, don't miss the forest for the trees.

You noticed the key is G major, that means a G major scale will work. And since none of the chords are out of the key, that scale will work for the entire chord progression and there's no more thinking that needs to be done.

The difference between any major and minor is the 3rd. So the 3rd of G is B, therefore the difference between G major and G minor is B(maj) and Bb(min).

Hope that helps a bit.

Griff

 

[MikeS]

I definitely want to have a go at this, but I want to go back and review the GTMU first.

 

[Blues_Man]

hi griff
thanks for jumping in and adding some insights, however, regarding your answer, i asking is that all there is
with my example? or have you left things out? i ask as your 1st post was so detailed with lots of options, so did i just pick something that was that easy that only the maj G scale would work, oh yes in know i could play a new scale new chord but other than that?

 

[Griff]

Nope - honestly if I were looking at that in front of me and it was my turn to solo I'd think "cool - easy, it's all in G." And I'd just play the G major scale or possibly the G major pentatonic scale depending on the sound you prefer.

Songs that don't deviate at all from the standard harmony rule are AWESOME because they are so easy to work with. These are the best.

Griff

 

[Griff]

How about some "no brainers" to try:

Brown Eyed Girl - G C G D
Margaritaville - D G A D
Maggie Mae - A G D A G D G D G A Emin F#min Emin A
Sister Golden Hair - C#min A E G#min C#min B A
Last Kiss - C Amin F G
When I Come Around (Green Day) - G D Emin C (I know - it ain't even close to blues)
Stairway To Heaven - Amin G F G (repeat)

These should all be easy. Come on, give it a go, they won't bite

Griff

 

[wgabree]

To be more explicit about my challenge, I get the major minor thing and for most pop songs I can figure out which of those to use.

It's when and how to apply the other modes that I"m challenged with, getting into jazzier stuff with more changes, etc.

I've seen guidelines, but I really would like to understand WHY, not just memorize a list of choices and then cycle through them hoping to find a match ;-)

I also know that it all comes down to the notes in the chords and the scales that the chords come from.  But that's at a high level view - not down in the details of execution. 

 

[Blues_Man]

Brown Eyed Girl - G C G D          Key I-G        IV-C             V-D

Margaritaville - D G A D             Key  I-D        IV-G             V-A

Maggie Mae - A G D A G D G D G A Emin F#min Emin A   Key I-D, ii-Em, iii-F#m, IV-G,V-A

Sister Golden Hair - C#min A E G#min C#min B A     Key I-E, iii-G#m, IV-A, V-B, iv-C#m

Last Kiss - C Amin F G       Key I-C IV-F, V-G, vi-Am

When I Come Around (Green Day) - G D Emin C     Key I-G, IV-C, V-D, vi-Em


Stairway To Heaven - Amin G F G (repeat) most would say C or Am but for wayne i've have the following modal study excerpt.................................................................

Why is Stairway To Heaven modal?

So let’s start to look at the modal works of this master piece. Before we begin, remember, No one in Led Zeppelin had any idea about this stuff, it is only in hindsight that we can see these things. But by looking at it like this, we can learn from it. Let’s begin.

Usually people refer to Stairway as: it’s in A minor. Most likely they say this because the intro starts with Am, and the solo use Am, G & F, which are classic chords to solo over in A minor. All Along The Watchtower for example use the same progression. But actually, it’s not in A minor, it’s in A Aeolian, A Dorian and A Melodic Minor. The majority of the tune is in A Dorian and A Melodic Minor.

Using the DIY TAB in The Guitar Conspiracy we see how two keys are notated through out: C major (A minor/Aeolian) and G major (A Dorian).

The vocal melody however never hits the 6th interval, it completely stays away from it leaving the chords to move between these two keys giving the tune several modal interchanges and by doing this drives the track forward.

The second chord, an Am with an added 9th use the ascending bass lines G# and by doing this we are either in Harmonic minor or Melodic minor. The G# acting as a major 7th in relation to A.

The third chord, a C/G could either be in the key of G, so a IV/I or in the key of C as a I/V.

The fourth chord, a D/F# or a Bm7/F# carries on the ascending bass line and indicates that we no longer can be in Am or A harmonic minor, we have to be in the key of G here due to the F#.

The fifth chord, a Fmaj7 however tells us we can’t be in G major anymore, we have to be in C, Fmaj7 acting as the IVmaj7 chord.

These chords can therefore only be seen as modal, giving us:

Chord 1, A Dorian (or A Aeolian)

Chord 2, A Melodic Minor (A Dorian with a maj7)

Chord 3, A Dorian (or A Aeolian)

Chord 4, A Dorian

Chord 5, A Aeolian

Chord 6, A Aeolian (or A Dorian)

Chord 7, A Aeolian (or A Dorian)

The tension of this progression is paired with the very simple 8th note rhythm which makes it feel less adventurous. The vocal melody avoids hitting either the b6th to indicate Aeolian (F) or the natural 6th to indicate Dorian (F#).

The next part is the chorus (which doesn’t start until 2:15!) is in A Dorian throughout, giving it a more up-feel than Aeolian would have.

These two parts keep interchanging up until the breakdown at 5:35 where we get different odd time signatures almost every bar. The reason they don’t feel strange is because of the loose and behind the beat feel Bonham provides. If you buy the sheet music for this tune you will see how it’s notated 9/8, 4/4 etc. This is very difficult to follow so the conspiracy has written this part as a constant /8 time. Simply double the time throughout as you count and things should be much easier to understand.

The solo, as previously stated is in A Aeolian due to the Fmaj7. The opening lick (one of the two licks in this solo that Jimi Page wrote before the recording) ends on an F. This is the first time the 6th is played in the melody. Giving us a familiar release after 6 minutes of modal interchange!

The solo carries on into the final vocal section which is sung an octave up, still not utilizing the 6th.

The last vocal section is then followed by a second solo that ends on the Fmaj7 chord and Plant sings the final very drawn out line now for the first time staying in Aeolian.

 

[Justatele]

To be more explicit about my challenge, I get the major minor thing and for most pop songs I can figure out which of those to use.

It's when and how to apply the other modes that I"m challenged with, getting into jazzier stuff with more changes, etc.

I've seen guidelines, but I really would like to understand WHY, not just memorize a list of choices and then cycle through them hoping to find a match ;-)

I also know that it all comes down to the notes in the chords and the scales that the chords come from.  But that's at a high level view - not down in the details of execution. 

Wayne, like the blues, Jazz has a entire different set of rules to harmonize by. Or maybe it has an entire set of non rules.
Actually as I have learned it, we bend some of the solid classic rules to create a harmony style we want to experiment with. Such as the melodic minor and It's modes.

well when we use modes we can use them in a direct method (diatonic) or a parallel.
direct we all know where they fit and actually we are not really playing a mode we are just playing the major scale, but then if we play in parallel, we have like 3 modes we can play over a minor 7th using that mode to create the harmonic center. This falls real nice into the classical theory when we are using the major scale for a base, but switch over to the melodic minor and we change one important fact, the major scale is based on 2 tethrachords divided by a whole tone, the melodic minor is not so we can explore entire new harmonies and we then learn to use our modes not for direct or parallel application but by resolution and how they lead to new chords.
really simple if you look at it in a way that we need to end up somewhere so we use a mode of the melodic minor that lets us end there while having harmony with the chord we are plying over.
of course, I am no where fluent in this, and Griff will tell you I have called him for an answer when perplexed and he has given me a new mode to learn and practice to get me out of a sonic hole.

so, this course and this thread are set up to teach a lot of basic theory and how to apply it, going deeper requires, well going deeper. Such as you start with BBG, go to BGU, then to SWS and the SBS, etc.

 

[snarf]

Just saw this thread and thought I'd try to weigh in and put what I'm learning in GTMU into practice to be sure I understand it.  This is actually Griff's course that I have been most excited about studying.  I'm one that really likes knowing the "whys."  I just finished the Circle of 5ths lesson, and wished someone had shown me that years ago.

Griff mentioned the no brainers, so I thought that even though most of this thread may as well be chinese to me I'd give one of them a shot.  So I came up with...

Margaritaville - A good I, IV, V song.  In effort to wrap my head around some of what was being talked about in the thread I grabbed my guitar and played around soloing with it in the key of Dmaj (D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D) and everything sounded like it should.  Then I swapped and decided to throw in some Dmin Pentatonic scales, and although not necessarily bad (yeahokwhatever I should probably define "bad".) it just didn't seem to fit and have the vibe of the the rest of the song.  I did that because I think I heard Griff say in one of his other courses that sometimes it's not about always practicing what we know sounds good, but we have to play and try things to see what sounds bad too.

Then I decided that the only lesson I've ever had (and still definitely trying to wrap my head around) on modes is the one from BGUIn, and I'd try to look at it from the modes perspective.  That's when I realized that it's still all the Myxodoreolion Harmonic-ly Melodic Mode to me.  So maybe I don't really know enough yet to give my expert analysis on songs.

So I'll keep following the thread  and get a few more lessons into my head and hopefully all this will start to make a little more sense.  :-[

 

[wgabree]

Stairway To Heaven - Amin G F G (repeat) most would say C or Am but for wayne i've have the following modal study excerpt.................................................................

Thanks Blues Man!  I'm digging into that!