Notation question

Discussion in 'General Music & Guitar Learning' started by MikeS, Nov 22, 2020.

  1. MikeS

    MikeS Allen, TX
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    I was tabbing out a solo and I couldn't decide which way it should be written.
    It's only one bar so far, but I can write it two different ways and it means the same thing.
    Which is right; or are they both wrong? LOL
    The first one looks better to my eye except:
    - Should the first note in the first measure be written as a dotted eighth note or should it be written as I have it in the second measure; an eighth tied to a sixteenth?
    - Should the third note in the first measure (sixteenth note) precede or follow the quarter note as I have it in the second measure? It seems like it should follow, but then the sixteenth note rest looks out of place in the middle of a 4 sixteenth note passage.

    Is there a rule about tied notes and which value follows which value (eighth then sixteenth vs sixteenth then eighth vs dotted eighth)?

    Which Is right.png
     
  2. ervjohns

    ervjohns Blues Junior

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    I hate the way GP handles bends. The tool doesn’t seem to work for duration, but handles fractional bends ok. The best way I have found to include the second note in a bend is to create a second note, make it a ghost note and tie it to the first note in the bend. That way you have 2 counts for the bend.
     
  3. MikeS

    MikeS Allen, TX
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    I wasn't really talking about how it's done in one software or another, because as I said both examples are (sound) exactly the same. I'm more curious about which is the conventional way to write it. As if you were doing it on paper.
     
  4. snarf

    snarf musician wannabe

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    Going back and looking at a couple of music books I've got last night, here is my observation on things that look similar. I have no idea the official rule for it.

    Opening notes: Second measure.

    Sixteenth note thing: I don't see anywhere that they break a sixteenth note barred sequence with a rest in the middle of it. I'm seeing where they have a distinct sixteenth, then a rest, then a joined group to finish the beat closer to what you have in the first measure.

    Summary: Again, just observationally, but I would go with what you have in the second measure, but on that 3rd beat keep the tie between beat 2 and that first 1/16th note, let the rest stand on it's own, and then group the 3rd and 4th 1/16th notes.
     
  5. david moon

    david moon Attempting the Blues

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    What key is the song actually in? I don't like seeing Gb and F# in the same chart. Looks like probably key of E. Key sig would be 4 sharps F# G# C# D#

    In the first beat, is the bend more of a grace note or "in time"? I prefer the notation in the second measure, the quarter note is right on beat 2. And the tie is across beats 2 and 3 so you can mentally group the notes of beat 3 together.
     
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  6. MikeS

    MikeS Allen, TX
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    It's all as written.
    Yeah, It's in E, not that it really matters. The question was about notation & how to write it.
    All the notes are played the same length in both examples (measures). It's just that 16th note rest in the second example (measure) that looks really odd to me.
     
  7. david moon

    david moon Attempting the Blues

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    Ok so you are looking at how to notate the rhythm. In the second example the group of 16th, 16 rest, and two 16th add up to one beat (3) and is a logical grouping. Notating the 2nd beat as a quarter note also emphasizes it is all of beat 2. The tie carries it over into beat 3.

    I'm sure both notations play the same on the computer, but if I was reading I would find the first with a 16th tied to a quarter, really weird. I vote for the second. No position on how to notate the bend in beat 1 since I haven't heard it.

    And why not put in the key sig since it's standard notation, and Gb and F# are the same note, so do it right. F# in key of E.
     
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  8. david moon

    david moon Attempting the Blues

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    When I am in a position to read standard notation, such as a pit orchestra or big band, the first thing I look at is the key signature, and how that may affect the positions I am playing in. The next thing is look ahead for key changes, that often occur during the piece, just to be prepared.
     
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  9. MikeS

    MikeS Allen, TX
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    Very good point.
    I'm just playing around for my own "fun". So I didn't think the signature was important, but I certainly understand your point. It's played over a Bm chord and I think the song is in Bm.

    I'm still not sure how to notate it without changing the rhythm.
    Here's what is sounds like:
    https://dl.dropbox.com/s/8alh9snez0wpxrt/Last Two Dollars-Solo.mp3?dl=0
     
    #9 MikeS, Nov 28, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2020
  10. david moon

    david moon Attempting the Blues

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    Bm would be relative minor of D, so key sig F# and C#. But how this snippet fits into the whole song, can't say for sure.
     
  11. Paleo

    Paleo Theory, Solos, Licks

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    4 Note Solo / Minor House / Upper Box 2 in Bm B D E F# A


    Bending 4 (E) to 5 (F#) - b3 (D) - R (B) - Down an octave to 5 (F#) - b7 (A)- R (B) - R (B).

    Bending 4 (E) to 5 (F#) - b3 (D) - R (B) - b3 (D) - R (B) - b7 (A) - 5 (F#).
     
    #11 Paleo, Dec 1, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
  12. MikeS

    MikeS Allen, TX
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    Um, ok, but how does that help with my original question about notation? In particular the 16th rest in the second example.
     
  13. dvs

    dvs Green Mountain Blues

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    There's nothing wrong with the sixteenth note rest in the second version - that notation is not uncommon at all.

    The sixteenth note on beat two tied to the quarter note in the first version is not technically "wrong" but it's a horrible thing to do and will win you no friends. It will thoroughly mess up anyone trying to sight-read it. Much better to interchange the order (quarter note on beat 2 tied to sixteenth on beat 3).
     
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  14. MikeS

    MikeS Allen, TX
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    Thanks. That's exactly what I was asking. It looks odd to me, but I'm not a sight reader.
     
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  15. Paleo

    Paleo Theory, Solos, Licks

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    It doesn't. I'm addressing the question raised about the key.

    I knew I should stayed out of it. :(
     
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  16. MikeS

    MikeS Allen, TX
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    Not at all.
    I get corn fused easily, so maybe add: "As to the key question..."
    Thanks for responding at all!
     
  17. david moon

    david moon Attempting the Blues

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    I think that's what I said, maybe not so emphatically, but good to re-enforce it. Grouping sub-divisions in a way that lets them be grasped as a "whole beat" makes a lot of sense.

    Hope you and your partner are well. Will you be working on the slopes this year or getting too old for that?
     
  18. david moon

    david moon Attempting the Blues

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    WenI to play the audio file that you posted

    After listening, i would consider the first bend a "grace note" into beat one.and count beat one as 1 e & uh
     
    #18 david moon, Dec 3, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
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  19. Jalapeno

    Jalapeno Student Of The Blues

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    Mike there is no "RULE" but there is a publishing convention that is a best practice. When music is published there are traditionally 3 considerations:

    1. Easy for the performer to read
    2. Easy for the engraver to engrave
    3. Cheap to publish for the publisher to make a profit.

    Items two and three don't apply (you are NOT publishing for profit and with the advent of software notation music isn't generally engraved anymore).

    For item one, "Easy for the performer to read" the convention is to refer to a hierarchy of the meter as levels and if you start or end your note two levels above or below you divide the note. Refer to the chart below with annotations to your first snippet. It is for 4/4 time (to match your snippets).

    Since the whole note covers the whole measure we don't worry about it.
    The Half note would be level 1
    The quarter note would be level 2
    The eighth note would be level 3
    The sixteenth note would be level 4

    notes.jpg
    I've matched your first snippet up to the 16th note level. You can see that your quarter note starts on a level 4 division (the 'e' of two-e-and-ah) and finishes across a level one division (the level one division is indicated by the red pseudo bar line (highlighted in blue)). Since you end your note two or more levels higher you'll divide the note with a tie.

    Although the first snippet is not wrong, per se, the second snippet is better. And it follows a publishing convention developed over a couple of centuries. The human brain likes patterns.

    I hope that helps.

    Eric
     
  20. MikeS

    MikeS Allen, TX
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    Thanks Eric.
    I'd definitely going to have to read this several time to digest "levels"
     
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