Minor blues scale over dominant chord

[Alaska]

I know I have seen various concepts but then can’t remember what lesson, etc. my question is regarding playing the minor pentatonic blues scale over dominant chords. Specifically the 3rd. The scale is a flat 3rd while the chord is a major third. Is it a matter of skipping the minor 3rd and substitute the major 3rd? Or hitting the b3 and bending to major, or playing b3 for tension? Etc.
Thank you.

 

[Jalapeno]

The flat third over a dominant chord is a characteristic sound of the blues. And, being able to mix the major and minor sound, especially over the I chord, is the next step of blues mastery. Griff teaches this major/minor sound in many of his courses.

Eric

 

[Alaska]

Thank you Eric,
I know Griff covers it and I even watched again one of his major minor videos. Not Sure if I missed it or he didn’t mention it now particular video. My main question was ...I know the minor blues is prevalent in blues progressions with dominant chords but I could not remember what Griff said regarding the clash between the major third of the chord with the minor 3rd of the blues scale?

 

[Jalapeno]

I guess I don't understand your question, sorry. It's a characteristic of the blues, in much the same manner as the flatted 5th. You can certainly play the major pentatonic thus avoiding the minor 3rd but that alone won't give you the blues sound. That minor 3rd played with a dominant chord is what makes it bluesy and even more so with the flatted 5th. I believe Griff has speculated that we are just used to hearing that "clash" so it sounds correct. Context is important as well. A major 7th and root played together sound clash-ey out of context but add in the major 3rd and the perfect 5th and the major 7th chord sounds mellow, not harsh.

Eric

 

[Paleo]

Specifically the 3rd. The scale is a flat 3rd while the chord is a major third. Is it a matter of skipping the minor 3rd and substitute the major 3rd? Or hitting the b3 and bending to major, or playing b3 for tension? Etc.

I thought about replying earlier, but I wasn't quite sure exactly what you are looking for. I would have said pretty much the same as @Jalapeno.

So maybe I'll just try to add a bit more to it.

As you know, the Dominant 7 chord is sort of a "hybrid", with a Major 3rd and a minor 7. This "allows" us to play both Major and/or minor over it.

It sounds like you're thinking the "clash" is something to avoid. However, it is something to embrace. It is the sound of the blues.

It doesn't "need" to resolve to a Major 3rd.

There are plenty of players who never hit a Major 3rd when soloing.


For a minor sound, you want the b3, along with the b7 (1 b3 4 5 b7).

It's the minor intervals (b3, b5 & b7) that make blues "bluesy". Some people refer to all 3 as "blue" notes.

If you want a Major sound you certainly can bend the b3 to the Major 3rd or simply play the Major 3rd (1 2 3 5 6) . Especially over the I chord.

You can even replace the b7 in the minor with a 6 (1 b3 4 5 6), or the Major 6 in Major with a b7 (1 2 3 5 b7).

Pretty much anything goes, depending on the sound you want.


Have either of us hit the mark?

If not, holler back.

 

[Alaska]

Thanks for the replies. First, I would like to say that I realize you can play whatever you want and if you like it that’s that. But thinking in terms or theory (rules)...my question is how to reconcile the minor 3rd of the scale with the major 3rd of the chord. I have seen lessons saying play the minor blues scale, others saying play the minor blues scale but substitute the b3 to a major 3, but if you hit the minor 3rd it is just a passing tone to the major 3rd. Similar to the blue note should be a passing tone not something you hang on. I know Griff has talked about it but can’t find it. In response to Paleo, I realize you don’t have to resolve to the major, and also that the dominant has the major 3rd and b7. And I am not talking a minor blues progression but all dominant chords for the I, IV, and V. So my confusion is the b3 in the scale clashing with the Maj 3rd of the dom. 7 chord.
I know a some tension is good and what gives the blues sound. But I keep seeing conflicting information on this. I appreciate and comments.

 

[Paleo]

So my confusion is the b3 in the scale clashing with the Maj 3rd of the dom. 7 chord.

Is your confusion about the fact the "clash" is allowed or about how you "should" deal with it.?

In response to Paleo, I realize you don’t have to resolve to the major, and also that the dominant has the major 3rd and b7. And I am not talking a minor blues progression but all dominant chords for the I, IV, and V.

One of the options you describe in the OP is resolving the m3 to the M3, along with skipping the m3 or subbing the M3.

My point is, you don't have to do any of those things. Or you can do any or all of them.

And I realize you're talking about a "Major" Blues. Don't know why you'd think I'm talking minor blues.

If you're using the same minor scale over the whole progression, the m3 only "clashes" with the M3 in the I chord. And that's not a "problem". Not all of the notes of the scale "fit" with the notes in the other 2 chords, either. But again, that's what makes the Blues the Blues.

(An option if you want everything to fit perfectly is to use the arpeggio of each chord.)

But thinking in terms or theory (rules)...my question is how to reconcile the minor 3rd of the scale with the major 3rd of the chord.

Maybe "reconcile" doesn't convey what you mean. To me that means fixing something that isn't correct or resolving it, which in this case isn't necessary.

This isn't "Classical Harmony". Blues has it's own "rules". The minor 3rd is "acceptable". There's nothing you need to "reconcile".

If you are looking for one correct "rule" regarding how to use it, there isn't one.

All the various approaches (conflicting information) you describe and the options I described earlier are "valid".

Griff talks about all of these things in various lessons throughout his courses. I don't know of any one lesson where he discusses it all.

 

[PapaRaptor]

So my confusion is the b3 in the scale clashing with the Maj 3rd of the dom. 7 chord.
I know a some tension is good and what gives the blues sound. But I keep seeing conflicting information on this. I appreciate and comments.

The clash is what makes it the blues.
Simple rule that Griff mentions pretty much every time this question comes up.
Play the I pentatonic major and/or minor over the I chord.
Play the I pentatonic minor over the IV chord and optionally the pentatonic 6 (adding the 6 into the pentatonic minor).
Play the I pentatonic minor over the V chord.
You will never be wrong.

You can certainly expand beyond that, as your ear will accept and your skill level increases, but that combination will never let you down.

 

[Jalapeno]

But thinking in terms or theory (rules)...my question is how to reconcile the minor 3rd of the scale with the major 3rd of the chord.

In this course, Guitar Theory Made Useful, chapter 18 is where Griff talks about this. It is a short lesson, hopefully you have the course or AAP. If not, here is an excerpt that may be what you're thinking of (I've put in bold the parts I think are most relevant):

Lesson 18 – Blues Changes (DVD 4)

At this point in the course you've pretty much learned “the rules.” And now we're going to look at a few ways that those rules are commonly broken, and how to work with those rules.
As a guitar soloist – when in doubt, grab those pentatonic scales that go with the chord. Remember that they will always work and are a great fallback position to take when chord progressions get weird.
Blues is such a common thread in all modern music that it's important to understand that, in general, very little of our traditional music theory applies.
Right from the start, blues usually consists of 3 chords (the I, IV, and V of the key) and they are all dominant 7th forms.
And as you already know, you can only have one dominant 7th chord in a song, it's the V chord.
So when you're soloing, you can treat the blues as 3 different keys, and play a different scale with every chord as it goes by. But most people don't do that most of the time. We'll cover some options in a minute.
First, I want to explain what makes blues... “bluesy.” And the simple answer is the flatted 3rd against a major chord (or dominant 7th, which is also major with an added b7.)
You can make anything sound bluesy by throwing a minor pentatonic scale over a major chord, as long as the chord doesn't have a major 7th (that will clash badly... dominant 7th is fine.)
In case you forgot, the minor pentatonic scale formula is 1, b3, 4, 5, b7. So 3 of the notes in a dominant 7th chord are there, but the 3rd is flatted when it should be natural. That's the sound of the blues right there.
Another “blue” note is the flatted 5th tone. In fact, the minor blues scale is the minor pentatonic scale with the addition of that b5. So it's 1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7.
There's also a major pentatonic scale, which is 1, 2, 3, 5, 6. And the blues version has... you guessed it... the b3 again. So it's 1, 2, b3, 3, 5, 6.
You can also take a mixolydian scale (which always goes well with a 7th chord) and add in some “blues” by adding the b3 and the b5.
That actually creates a pretty substantial conglomeration of notes: 1, 2, b3, 3, 4, b5, 5, 6, b7
That's 9 out of 12 possible notes... most of the fretboard!
In fact, another common approach to blues is to combine together the major and the minor blues scales and when you do that, you get the exact same set of notes as adding the “blues” notes to the mixolydian scale.

So which approach is right? The one that you can remember! It's all about what you can use. So if you can remember blues scales better, then go with it.

I hope that helps. It is basically all you'll get about minor 3rd over a major/dominant chord in this course. If it was a different course or from his blog that you are remembering then it was probably something said in passing and not a "rule" so much.

Sorry, that's all I've got

Eric

 

[Paleo]

Guitar Theory Made Useful, chapter 18

Just re-"watched" that lesson. Most of it's there.

And I have heard him say, elsewhere(?), not to "hang out" on the b3 when playing the Major Blues scale, since here it is considered a passing tone.

And when using the minor scale he likes to give the m3 a "squeeze" to the M3 if landing on it coming back to the I chord.

https://bluesguitarunleashed.com/blog/the-blues-squeeze/

And to "bluesify" the 3rd when playing Mixolydian, etc.

https://classicrockguitarunleashed.com/mixolydian-bluesification/

Again, there are lots of options and no single "rule".

http://bluesguitarunleashed.com/blog/an-easier-way-to-follow-chords-when-you-solo/

 

[Alaska]

You guys are great. Thanks for your patience.