If E# Was F.....

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Or "If 6 was 9"?

This was the original post from awhile back. Please don't tell me I need to get out more or I must have too much time on my hands. This is the kind of stuff I enjoy along with learning to play.


Following up on some recent discussion regarding using an E# instead of F.

What if we didn't use E#?

1) How would you write an F# Major scale?

F# G# A# B C# D# F ???


2) How would you design a Key Signature that shows F as both sharp and natural?

Throughout the score you would have to use a lot of natural signs?


3) How would you differentiate a key signature for F# Major from B Major which has the same 5 sharps? F#C#G#D#G#

B C# D# E F# G# A#


4) What would be a perfect 5th (P5) above A#?

F would be a minor 6th. A Perfect 5th would be E#.

(Although you will often see Aaug written as A C# F.)


5) How would you write a C# Major scale without an E# or a B#?

C# D# F F# G# A# C ???

Now you have both F & F# and C & C#. Same problems and still the same 5 sharps as B Major.



E# has to be used when writing F# Major and C# Major to preserve the intervalic relationships of Major scales, i.e the Perfect 5th our system is built upon.

(The system comes first. The "rule" of using each letter name once insures the internal integrity of the system.)

And being able to build a Major scale from any root was the whole purpose of creating our equal temperament system in the first place.

Each successive #, as well as Key and Major Scale, is a Perfect 5th above the previous one.


G Major - F#
D Major - F#, C#
A Major - F#, C#, G#
E Major - F#, C#, G#, D#
B Major - F#, C#, G#, D#, A#
F# Major F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#
C# Major F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#, B#

(Using Gb Major instead of F# Major requires a Cb instead of B. Cb Major also requires an Fb instead of E.:))
 
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JohnHurley

Rock and Roll
Maybe because the first letter in the word "imaginary" isn't "j"?

Ummm what i was trying to get to is that it is just a “generally” accepted convention to use i ... one can use whatever nomenclature for imaginary numbers that you like ... but other mathematicians will understand you faster using i instead of j ...
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Sorry. Just not seeing how what one arbitrarily chooses to call the square root of -1 is relevant.

Using E# vs F isn't arbitrary within the system of music that we have all agreed to use.

It's not a matter of personal choice.

I suppose one could call anything what ever they liked, but if they don't adopt the "convention" of using the letters A thru G to name notes, along with some #'s and b's, Griff's theory course ain't gonna be of much use.:(
 
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Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Seems there are several concepts in music in general (and guitar specifically) that seem to "naturally" confuse a lot of folks.

Boxes???
Mixing Major and minor pentatonic scales in a "Major" Blues progression. (Boxes again.)
Playing the same note (in the same octave?) in more than one place.
Modes:eek:
E#, B#, Cb, Fb:whistle:

People seem to readily accept that notes can be lowered or raised a half-step (or more), such as G natural to Gb or G#.

And that some pitches can be notated in more than one way, such as G# and Ab. (They are NOT the same notes.)

But as soon as we start talking about raising or lowering notes from the natural half steps (E &F, B & C)......:confused:

Any note can be raised (#) or lowered (b) by a half-step.

Any pitch can be notated as the # of the note a half-step below it or a b of the note a half-step above it.

But naming them isn't arbitrary or just a matter of choice.

What you will use to notate a particular pitch will depend on the situation in which you are using it. (Key, scale, chord, progression, mode, etc.)

That's just the way it works.:cool:
 
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david moon

Attempting the Blues
This is also what I have learned, use each letter of the scale once. Applies to "sharp" or "flat" keys. If you go around the circle of fifths enough times you will get into double sharps or flats but that's really just an academic exercise.
 

Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
@Paleo you are right about many things being naturally confusing... luckily, many of the more confusing elements aren't entirely necessary unless you want to be "perfectly" correct.

What I mean is, I've never had anyone complain when we were playing a song in F#, and I said they need to play an F Natural in one spot... it should have been E#, of course, but in "conversational theory" most folks don't care about the details.

I only point this out for those that are naturally put off by theory, or have been burned by it in the past. There is often a tendency to run from theory at the first hint of difficulty... don't let it frighten you, most of the time "close enough" is exactly that.
 

david moon

Attempting the Blues
In pit orchestras I've heard the term "concert pitch" as in "concert C", meaning all the C based istruments will play a C and the Bb instruments will play their D and the Eb instruments... I don't even want to think about.
In that situation the difference between F and E# probably doesn't matter much. I.e, everybody give me a "concert F".
 

DavidLylis

Aspiring Bluesman
In pit orchestras I've heard the term "concert pitch" as in "concert C", meaning all the C based istruments will play a C and the Bb instruments will play their D and the Eb instruments... I don't even want to think about.
In that situation the difference between F and E# probably doesn't matter much. I.e, everybody give me a "concert F".
I'm Canadian. I just tune to "aye" (kidding, I'm not)
 
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