F#dim or F#m6?

[snarf]

New question for my theory amigos.

I was playing this chord the other day, and the following conversation ensued.

buddy: What's the diminished chord you're playing? I can't seem to figure out the voicing.
me: It's not diminished. It's an F#m6.
buddy: show me.
me: <shows pic of chord below>
buddy: That's not F#m6, that's a weird way to play F#dim.
me: It's F#m6.
buddy: It's diminished.
me: It's minor 6.
<ad infinitum until we shut up about it>

So which is it? Is it F#m6 or a weird way to play F#dim? Or is it one of those things like read and read (I decided to read the second book in the series after I read the first) where it totally depends on the context and could be either?

In this instance, the song is in C, and the immediate progression is F to the chord in question leading back to C.

 

[Jalapeno]

It isn't "normal" (notice the quotes ) to have a sharp and flat in the same chord. If you respell that chord as D# - F# - A what do you have?

Eric
(yes, I am making you work at this )

 

[snarf]

(yes, I am making you work at this )

Quite alright! The whole "teach a man to fish" thing.

That's part of where I'm confused (and didn't notice that it was showing # and b in the screenshot). Since it's in C, then the notes shown would be b3, b5, and 6. Diminished would be 1, b3, and b5. The minor 6 would be 1, b3, 5, 6. So the diminished doesn't have the 6, and the minor 6 has a 5 instead of a b5. So, thinking about that, it seems to have more in common with a diminished. But, then again, they're both 1 note away from being one of those chords (the 6 added to the dim and the b5 instead of the 5. But it's a note added to the dim and a note changed in the minor 6. However, from a how-to-play-this-chord perspective (fingers on the fretboard), I can see that it could be either (the bottom half of the dim just moved up to the next frets and the 6 added to the F#m). Sorry. Kind of thinking out loud here.

The more I think about it, I'm thinking it would probably be the dim chord because of the b5 that the F#m wouldn't have. Does that sound right?

 

[MikeS]

It's F#m6 in my book
I've always played dim chords xx2323x (actually dim7)

 

[Jalapeno]

Since it's in C, then the notes shown would be b3, b5, and 6.

This is probably where You are getting confused.

First, forget the key and let's spell the chord. To find the spelling of a chord you try to stack the notes into thirds. Although F# is the lowest note that doesn't automatically make it the root. You can use trial and error. First just use the letters.

1. F - A - D -- F to A is a third but A to D is not.
2. A - F - D -- well, A to F is not a third and F - D is not a third.
3. D - F - A -- D to F is a third. F to A is also a third. So this is most likely how the chord is spelled.

Adding back the sharps.

1. D# - F# is 3 half steps, correct? That makes a minor 3rd
2. F# to A is also 3 half steps, correct? That also makes a minor 3rd.

So you have a minor 3rd over a minor 3rd.

How are chord qualities determined?

1. A major third on the bottom with a minor third on top is a MAJOR chord
2. A minor third on the bottom with a major third on top is a MINOR chord
3. A major third on the bottom with a major third on top is an AUGMENTED chord
4. A minor third on the bottom with a minor third on top is a DIMINISHED chord

So using those formula, what quality is the chord?

Eric

 

[dvs]

A full diminished chord would be 1 b3 b5 bb7 so F# A C Eb are the chord tones. That's the way I'd vote. Plus if the song is in the key of C and this chord resolves to the I chord, that's a pretty normal place to find a IV#dim.

 

[Jalapeno]

A full diminished chord would be 1 b3 b5 bb7 so F# A C Eb are the chord tones. That's the way I'd vote. Plus if the song is in the key of C and this chord resolves to the I chord, that's a pretty normal place to find a IV#dim.

Yeah, I was going the other way for D# F# A C but since its the same chord I think you are absolutely right that it is the #ivdim. It is certainly more common and doesn't require a respell.

Eric

 

[Paleo]

...the immediate progression is F to the chord in question leading back to C.

I’d name it according to its function while passing from F to C.

By itself it can be named either way.

F#dim7 = F# A C Eb

F#m6 = F# A C# D#

The chord in question = F# A Eb (or D#) F#

There is no 5th.

Without a C or C# it can be either, F# A Eb (dim7) or F# A D# (m6).


If you call the 2nd string, 4th fret Eb (i.e. E# double flatted to Eb), it's dim w/o a C.

If you call the 2nd string, 4th fret D#, it's m6 w/o a C# (D# being the 6 in F# Major).


So how about actually playing the progression and hearing what we can hear.

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/0rt8h2qb6rg3z61/Min dim.mp4?dl=0

 

[ChrisGSP]

I LOVE this thread !!! Nothing to add, really; I'm on the Diminished side, but without that fourth note to nail it, either name seems OK to me.

 

[snarf]

Alrighty then. After thinking about it all afternoon while I was working, and looking at everything (including Paleo's vid), I think I'm convinced that it's F#dim. I'm still not totally sure I always understand "function" and how it plays into things, but I definitely agree that it is a passing chord.

And full disclosure, I was walking a buddy through "Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out." My face teacher turned me onto it back before I quit going to him, and he and I played around with it, but never wrote anything out. So the chords came by ear. I play that F#dim chord the way I do because I sometimes like the sound of the walk-up on the 1st string from F to F# to G (the C chord) and then it moves on to an A chord and the A on the 1st string, and that steady upward movement gives a little counter melody that I like.

I appreciate everyone's input very much!

 

[Paleo]

I sometimes like the sound of the walk-up on the 1st string from F to F# to G (the C chord) and then it moves on to an A chord and the A on the 1st string

Voice leading. The main reason for using the dim7 chord (and other inversions).

 

[Paleo]

If you move the "alternate" shape down to the 1st fret, Eb A C F#, you'll also have that walk up on the 1st string as well.

Griff uses this shape for F#dim in "Nobody Knows You" in ABGU on p. 130.


If you play the F#dim at the 4th fret using this "alternate" shape, as I showed, you'll have the walk up from F to F# to G to A on the 4th string in the bass instead.

The same dim7 chord shape "inverts" every 3 frets.

 

[Paleo]

And some people will call a bb7 a 6 anyway, so, again, it's more important how the chord is used, rather than what you name it.

 

[Jalapeno]

I'm still not totally sure I always understand "function" and how it plays into things, but I definitely agree that it is a passing chord.

It's not really a passing chord it is what is known as a type of dominant substitution. The diminished chord is substituted for the V chord. The dominant chord (V) "pulls" the ear back to the tonic. The purpose is to get a lot of tension so when the tonic (the I chord, the root) comes there is an AHHHH feeling of release. That is the FUNCTION of the V chord - maximum tension followed (in most cases ) by release to the tonic.

The progression is really IV-V-I which in the key of C is F-G(7)-C and the G7 was substituted with a diminished chord, which makes it function as the V even though it is (as Doug mentioned) really a #ivdim7 or alternatively a #iidim depending on if you spell it with an Eb or a D#. For me, I prefer to keep all sharps or all flats in chords but fully diminished seventh chords are interesting because they sound the same in any inversion due to the intervals being

minor 3rd over minor 3rd over minor 3rd

so any way you stack them or spell them its the same chord aurally. When the diminished chord is a substitute for the V chord it really doesn't matter what you call it because it is functioning as a V chord. edit: I've been reading and found the IV - #ivdim7 - I progression is really common in Jazz Blues as an alternative to the tritone substitution, which is more common in Jazz. The tritone substitution would be a bII7. additional edit: I bought a course called "Introduction to Jazz Blues" back in 2013 but never went through it. I was just reading it (for the first edit above) and continuing reading about Jazz Blues progressions found this interesting nugget: "The #IVdim7 chord can be used to follow any IV7 chord in a blues that resolves back to the I7chord, and is most commonly found in bar 6 and sometimes in bar 2 depending on if you use the quick change in that bar or not ."

There are a lot of good sites that explain how chords function and Griff does it well. I like the way this guy explains it because it is a gentle introduction without a bunch of music theory lingo

http://hubguitar.com/music-theory/chord-function

In the end, always trust your ear. When a chord looks like a minor 6th but is pulling your ear to the tonic it probably is functioning as something else.

Eric

 

[Paleo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ftgt0Ot0pc

 

[Jalapeno]

Well, apparently Paleo has me blocked AHHH-gain because I can't see his posts (I see "Unknown Member" in the forum thread list with nothing here in the thread). I'm not sure why he does that. Maybe I use words that are more brusque than intended and he doesn't like it???

Anyway, I think he's a smart guy and, Snarf, I assume you got the term "passing chord" from him. However, "passing chord" and its single note equivalent "passing tone" are terms used when the music theory explanation is going to take a lot of time and effort and aren't essential to the subject. They are "pseudo" explanations. I like to understand why, not just what, so I try to explain a bit more without having to go so deep you're in theory hell.

Here is more analysis for anyone interested why I think it isn't really a passing chord but a dominant substitution. The song KKYWYDaO is an 8 bar blues using a modification of the "ragtime progression". You can look up "ragtime progression", I'm sure it's explained in detail on google or wikipedia somewhere

The "ragtime progression" in the Key of C is E7 - A7 - D7 - G7 - C which is right out of the circle of fifths. Going backward - C to G is a fifth, G to D is a fifth, D to A is a fifth, A to E is a fifth.

The complete progression of KKYWYDaO is

First 4 bars: C - E7 - A7 - Dm - A7 - Dm -
Second 4 bars: F - F#dim7 - C - A7 - D7 - G7 - C

I've highlighted in red the chords right out of the "ragtime progression". Now what about the other 4 chords? There is a temporary modulation to the key of D minor (you can hear it has shifted to D minor in the second two bars of the song starting with the A7-dm-A7-dm) and we could sit with that. But it isn't necessary, we can stay in the Key of C... the F#dim7 is a substitution for the G7. Where does the substitution come from? It is the vii dim7 of the V chord. So it is substituting for the V7/V. Here is a chart of the Roman Numeral analysis in C (without the modulation to D minor):

I - C
ii - Dm
IV - F
V7 - G7
viiº7 / V - F#dim7 this is a substitute for the V7 of the V chord which would be D7 (I hope that dim circle shows)
V7 / V - D7
V7 / V / V - A7
V7 / V / V / V - E7

You can prove that the F#º7 is substituting for the D7 (the V7/V) by playing the D7 instead of the F#º7. Try it! play F - D7 - C - A7 instead of F - F#º7 - C - A7 and see if it doesn't change the progression hardly at all.

Eric