Confused about the possibility of B# Cb E# Fb?

B

Blake

Blues Newbie
Hi gang!

I'm new to the forum but I checked out another lesson site, looked through the dude's sample lessons on theory for grins and got REALLY confused! In his "remember the notes" technique section, he showed a fretboard and had a B# Cb E# and Fb on frets that are normally B C E and F on the 5th and 6th strings.
When I asked him if it was a typo he responded with the following:

"No, you didn't miss anything. The explanation might get too technical but (as you say) generally, for instance, you don't see Cb because that's the same thing as B. However, "generally" is a qualifying term that means, "there are exceptions". Example: the 4th note in a Gb major scale is Cb. It can't be a B because Bb is 3. So 4 HAS to be some kind of C. Count the scale degrees: Gb Ab Bb Cb. Can't be B because Bb is 3.
Does that help?"

Can anyone enlighten me?

Thanks,
Blake
 
Bob630

Bob630

Blues Newbe
Blake said:
Hi gang!

I'm new to the forum but I checked out another lesson site, looked through the dude's sample lessons on theory for grins and got REALLY confused! In his "remember the notes" technique section, he showed a fretboard and had a B# Cb E# and Fb on frets that are normally B C E and F on the 5th and 6th strings.
When I asked him if it was a typo he responded with the following:

"No, you didn't miss anything. The explanation might get too technical but (as you say) generally, for instance, you don't see Cb because that's the same thing as B. However, "generally" is a qualifying term that means, "there are exceptions". Example: the 4th note in a Gb major scale is Cb. It can't be a B because Bb is 3. So 4 HAS to be some kind of C. Count the scale degrees: Gb Ab Bb Cb. Can't be B because Bb is 3.
Does that help?"

Can anyone enlighten me?

Thanks,
Blake
Click to expand...

The attached file may be of help.
 

Attachments

  • music-theory-cheat-sheet.pdf
    856 KB · Views: 15
JestMe

JestMe

Student Of The Blues
Yeah this can cause confusion... I understand it but have never seen it in real life... Don't let it scare you off. It's pretty rare.

The word is basically, there are 7 different notes in a scale. Each note is supposed to be identified with a different letter... you can't use the same letter twice. - Therefore since you can't use the same letter twice you may end up with an 'Enharmonic' equivalent like Cb which is the same as B or B# which is the same as C...

Hope that made sense and was a little bit helpful.
 
Paleo

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
An exercise in writing out the Major Scale in all keys will help. (Example attached)

All Major scales must have every letter.

Follow the Circle of 5ths, writing out your Major Scales for the Keys of C G D A E & B.


Then try F# (6 sharps):

F G A B C D E becomes F# G# A# B C# D# E#

E# is enharmonic with F, but has to be written using an E.

E# is a half step below F#


If you continue on to C# (7 sharps), you end up with C# D# E# F# G# A# B#

B# is enharmonic with C, but has to be written with a B.

B# is a half step below C#.

E# occurs only in these 2 Keys, F# & C#, and B# only occurs in F#.


For the flat Keys, try writing out the major scales for F Bb Eb Ab & Db.

When you get to Gb (6 flats), you end up with Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F

Here you have to write Cb instead of B.


Then for Cb (7 flats), everything will be flat: Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb

Here you have to write Fb instead of E.


Cb occurs only in Gb & Cb and Fb only occurs in Cb.


These enharmonic spellings only occur in the Keys with 6 & 7 sharps (F# & C#) and 6 & 7 flats (Gb & Cb).

Playing in these keys in pretty rare.;)
 

Attachments

  • Key Signatures.jpg
    Key Signatures.jpg
    375.9 KB · Views: 4
Last edited:
Paleo

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
You might also run into these enharmonic spellings when altering a note in a scale/mode or chord.

A couple of examples.

An A Major triad, A C# E.

To make it an augmented triad you raise the 5th a half step, A C# E#.

The E# will be played in the same place you would play an F, but in this case would be spelled E#.


An F Major triad, F A C.

To make it a diminished triad you lower the 3rd and the 5th each a half step, F Ab Cb.

Here the Cb is played in the same place you would play a B, but would be spelled Cb.


The idea is that any pitch can be spelled in more than one way. (EX: A = Bbb or G##)

How it is spelled will depend on the context in which it is used.
 
Last edited:
Paleo

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
MikeS said:
" no note name can occur twice in a scale."
Click to expand...
No letter occurring twice applies to diatonic scales (Majors and their modes).

For example, Blues Scales and the Chromatic scale have letters used more than once.

It makes more sense to me to start with "Every Major Scale must use every letter once."

This is how Griff teaches Major Scales.

First write out all 7 letters and then figure out where to apply sharps or flats.

If you don't try to write out Major scales for F# & C# and Gb & Cb, you won't discover the need for the enharmonic spellings.
 
Last edited:
Paleo

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Bob630 said:
Griffs music theory course has a good explanation of scales .
Click to expand...

For Major Scales in particualr, Lesson 3, "Major Keys and Scales".


And for AAP members, check out the 10/15/18 Theory Session: "Major Scale Speed Building".
 
Last edited:
david moon

david moon

Attempting the Blues
Paleo said:
An exercise in writing out the Major Scale in all keys will help. (Example attached)

All Major scales must have every letter.

Follow the Circle of 5ths, writing out your Major Scales for the Keys of C G D A E & B.


Then try F# (6 sharps):

F G A B C D E becomes F# G# A# B C# D# E#

E# is enharmonic with F, but has to be written using an E.

E# is a half step below F#


If you continue on to C# (7 sharps), you end up with C# D# E# F# G# A# B#

B# is enharmonic with C, but has to be written with a B.

B# is a half step below C#.

E# occurs only in these 2 Keys, F# & C#, and B# only occurs in F#.


For the flat Keys, try writing out the major scales for F Bb Eb Ab & Db.

When you get to Gb (6 flats), you end up with Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F

Here you have to write Cb instead of B.


Then for Cb (7 flats), everything will be flat: Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb

Here you have to write Fb instead of E.


Cb occurs only in Gb & Cb and Fb only occurs in Cb.


These enharmonic spellings only occur in the Keys with 6 & 7 sharps (F# & C#) and 6 & 7 flats (Gb & Cb).

Playing in these keys in pretty rare.;)
Click to expand...
I agree with most of this post. But I have played bass in Gb and Cb ( and Db) many times in theater and Big Band music, probably because the Eb and Bb horns are in a easier key with less flats. Or just to accommodate a singer, who knows?
 
david moon

david moon

Attempting the Blues
Well no, if you know the Cmajor scale C D E F G A B

Then the Cb scale would be Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb

Now you can't use the same note names twice, so even though Cb is enharmonic with B, you still have to call it Cb. Likewise with Fb and E.
 
david moon

david moon

Attempting the Blues
david moon said:
Well no, if you know the Cmajor scale C D E F G A B

Then the Cb scale would be Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb

Now you can't use the same note names twice, so even though Cb is enharmonic with B, you still have to call it Cb. Likewise with Fb and E.
Click to expand...
And if you were looking at written music, the key signature would have 7 flats.

If the composer wanted to write in the key of B, the major scale would be

B C# D# E F# G# A#

Key signature would be 5 sharps. For some reason a lot of charts favor the "flat" keys.
 
B

Blake

Blues Newbie
JestMe said:
Yeah this can cause confusion... I understand it but have never seen it in real life... Don't let it scare you off. It's pretty rare.

The word is basically, there are 7 different notes in a scale. Each note is supposed to be identified with a different letter... you can't use the same letter twice. - Therefore since you can't use the same letter twice you may end up with an 'Enharmonic' equivalent like Cb which is the same as B or B# which is the same as C...

Hope that made sense and was a little bit helpful.
Click to expand...

Hi there, I posted this clear back in Dec so I'm late for the reply, but wanted to thank you for the tip.
It helped some but I kinda walked away from the question (obviously) and have been studying my BGU 2.0 course since I got it a couple months ago. I played by ear off and on for years and the whole "Enharmonic" thing is a bit to complicated for me to deal with right now. Someone else sent me a cheat sheet with the Circle of 5ths so eventually I'll get there.
Thanks again man!
 
B

Blake

Blues Newbie
Thanks for all the info everybody. I know I wrote this back in December but I appreciate all the tips!

I think I need to just buckle up and take Griff's Music Theory Course!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top