Chicago Shuffle in E

CaptOblivious

Blues Junior
110 BPM

Chord Progression
I: E I E I E I E I
I A I A I E I E I
I B I A I E E7/D A/C# Am/C I E/B B7 :II

See tracks below - originals removed as a public safety measure:LOL:
 
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PapaRaptor

Father Vyvian O'Blivion
Staff member
110 BPM

Chord Progression
I: E I E I E I E I
I A I A I E I E I
I B I A I E E7/D A/C# Am/C I E/B B7 :II

Clean

Open to 1:22
The track is great.
I hate to complain, but I must (I must).
I had my headphones on when I started it and they damn near blew off my head. So, I downloaded the clean track and even the clean copy is completely max'ed out and is clipping like crazy. The clean backing track you started with should be at least 6 db below max to give other soloists room.
 

CaptOblivious

Blues Junior
The track is great.
I hate to complain, but I must (I must).
I had my headphones on when I started it and they damn near blew off my head. So, I downloaded the clean track and even the clean copy is completely max'ed out and is clipping like crazy. The clean backing track you started with should be at least 6 db below max to give other soloists room.

Sorry about the assault on your hearing:eek:

Not considered a complaint, it's a teaching moment:D

My setup:
Using Reaper:

Jam Track at 0 going to FX and Guitar track at -4 sent to effects track only, in this instance using IKM Sunset Sound Studio Reverb Plugin which is sent to the Master. Fx track at -11DB going to Master.

Master track Fx - IKM T-Racks 5 Mastering Processor One using a default preset to not clip.
Master track meter never showed clipping

rendered to mp3

First time using Fx buss?? to control Fx on 2 tracks

Obviously something went awry, what would you suggest??

When I was playing around with the routing options, it was louder when I sent the guitar and jam track to the Master at the same time as the Fx track.

One thing I do notice is the rendered MP3 never seems to have the clarity/sparkle I hear before processing.

All suggestions are very much appreciated!
 

PapaRaptor

Father Vyvian O'Blivion
Staff member
Oh crap... a teaching moment? :confused: Hold on!

My suggestion is to take the mastering software out of your chain. Mastering isn't for a work-in-progress, but is added at the tail end. If you were closing out the track, it would be fine, but mastering your stuff right up front squeezes the crap out of your dynamic range.
Further, you might have a recording that would clip wildly without the mastering software, but the limiter in your mastering plug-in will create an artificial "clip level" at something less than 100% signal.
I've always referred to mastering software as "filling all the cracks." I did a comparison on the BYO track I recorded for another thread as an example. There are three different mixdowns showing.
  • The top track is the actual mixed recording without a mastering plug-in. The levels on it are far below clipping and it could benefit from mastering, since it is a final product.
  • The middle track is the same as the top, but with overall gain boosted by 6db. Upon mixdown, it reported clipping, although it may not be obvious from the waveform shown.
  • The bottom track is the middle track, with my mastering plug-in (Ozone 9) applied. When I mixed this down, I did not get a clip warning from my DAW.
Over-Master.jpg

If I was passing this track along to the VJR, the top track would be the one I would share. It has a low overall average volume level, with plenty of headroom for later contributors. The middle track might be OK, but as I mentioned, my DAW complained about clipping on it, so I would reduce it at least to the point where I don't get a clip warning during mixdown. Keep in mind that the middle clip is mixed 6db higher than the top one. That makes it more difficult for another contributor to fit "in the mix."
As you can see in the bottom track, there is a whole lot of limiting going on, by all the flat tops you see. While it is technically not clipping, too much limiting (which mastering software will happily do when not properly set up) is going to sound only slightly better than clipping. It's the loudest, but it sounds like crap!

I'm not familiar with which metering system Reaper uses, but there are several, all with slightly different response characteristics. The nice thing about digital recording is that the noise floor, which used to be a problem on analog gear, especially tape simply isn't an issue on most digital recordings. A slightly lower signal is better than a too hot signal, especially for something like the VJR contributions.

Further, I don't recommend normalizing a track either. Again, with digital, you don't gain anything by using it. If you must use normalizing, make sure you are normalizing to something like -6db or -9db. -12db wouldn't hurt anything. Never normalize to 0db on any WIP recording.

tl;dr Don't use mastering plug-ins on VJR material.
 

CaptOblivious

Blues Junior
Oh crap... a teaching moment? :confused: Hold on!

My suggestion is to take the mastering software out of your chain.
tl;dr Don't use mastering plug-ins on VJR material.

Reaper.jpg

Thank you for the suggestions!

Removed Fx from Master
Routed Jam Track to Master -6DB Level
Guitar Track -6 DB to Fx Track only
Fx Track to Master -12 DB

Curious what Fx would you use on the Master?

Hopefully the only thing offensive is a couple sour notes that don't blast your ear drums:eek:

Going to have some fun with your BYO VJR project:D

Really Clean Jam - Chicago Shuffle

Start to 1:22
 
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PapaRaptor

Father Vyvian O'Blivion
Staff member
This is fun. First, it sounds a whole lot better (IMHO).

Curious what Fx would you use on the Master?
Since you asked.
On your contribution, I would mix the backing track lower (probably around 3db, but that's just a guess). That would have two effects. 1. it would give you and all followers more headroom. 2. It would bring your guitar further forward in the mix.
Try a little less reverb on your guitar. The more reverb you have, the further back in the mix your guitar is going to sit, especially if you have a lot more reverb on your guitar than on the backing track. Even more so if you are using a long decaying reverb. Right now your contribution sounds like the band is right next to me and you are playing guitar 30 feet down the hall. Unless you are going for a specific effect, always use less reverb than you think you should. Try to make your contribution sound like you are in the same room as the band. If you are currently using reverb to make your guitar sound less "thin," try slapback delay instead of reverb or use some slapback and a little reverb.

On your submission, I would use a little bit of compression to bring up the quieter portions and make the guitar consistently audible a compression ratio of about 2:1 to 3:1 works for me, but that's just a guideline and your guitar already sounds pretty consistent. If the clean track you included is as you downloaded it, it is already pretty well compressed, so you probably don't want to compress it any more.

For an overall mix, I would leave the backing track exactly as you found it and try to match your guitar so that it sounds like you are actually in the band.

When working with backing tracks, my general rule is to leave the backing track alone and apply processing only to what you add.

I hope that all makes sense. It is Friday and I have an adult beverage on my desk, so I might ramble...
 
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