tuning up a fifth or down a fourth

snarf

snarf

making guitars wish they were still trees
OK theory folks, I've recently become enamored with baritone guitars and how they sound. That has prompted my question.

A standard guitar is tuned to E on the 1st and 6th strings. A baritone guitar, from what I understand, is tuned on those strings to B. B is the 5 of E, so to tune up to B, if I understand the terminology correctly, would be tuning a fifth above E. But what about when you're tuning down to B instead? Would you still be tuning down a fifth or, since you're only tuning down by 4, would you be tuning down a fourth?

If I'm thinking correctly, from E, tuning up a fifth or down a fourth would put you at the same named note only an octave apart...a B. Is that right?

Does my question make sense?
 
Paleo

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
snarf said:
If I'm thinking correctly, from E, tuning up a fifth or down a fourth would put you at the same named note only an octave apart...a B. Is that right?

Does my question make sense?
Click to expand...
Yes and yes.

E up to B is a P5. So is B down to E.

However, B up to E is a P4.

If you go to the 5th string E at the 7th fret, the P4 (A) will be on the same fret of the next string up and the P5 (B) will be at the same fret the next string down. You have 5 1 4 all lined up on the same fret on any 3 string set.(Except, as always, when crossing the B string.)

P4 and P5 are inverse intervals, tying us into Griff's recent email/blog regarding inversions.:sneaky:
 
tommytubetone

tommytubetone

Great Lakes
snarf said:
OK theory folks, I've recently become enamored with baritone guitars and how they sound. That has prompted my question.

A standard guitar is tuned to E on the 1st and 6th strings. A baritone guitar, from what I understand, is tuned on those strings to B. B is the 5 of E, so to tune up to B, if I understand the terminology correctly, would be tuning a fifth above E. But what about when you're tuning down to B instead? Would you still be tuning down a fifth or, since you're only tuning down by 4, would you be tuning down a fourth?

If I'm thinking correctly, from E, tuning up a fifth or down a fourth would put you at the same named note only an octave apart...a B. Is that right?

Does my question make sense?
Click to expand...
If you put a capo on it my brain would explode. LOL :p:D
 
Paleo

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Also, think of playing what Griff calls the "Blues in E" rhythm figure.
To play over A you repeat it up one string.
Then over B you move up a whole step.
(That's the "usual" 1 on the 6th string, 4 at the same fret up a string and the 5 up a whole step from 4.)

But for "Blues in A" you play the figure from the 5th string.
Then for D you move it up one string.
But then for E you move down to the 6th string.
(That's 5 1 4 all lined up as open strings, all tuned a P4 apart.)

If you had a 7th string below the 6th you could play the B down there for the "Blues in E", rather than moving the A up a whole step.:sneaky:
 
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snarf

snarf

making guitars wish they were still trees
Paleo said:
E up to B is a P5. So is B down to E.

However, B up to E is a P4.
Click to expand...
Thanks!! I think my head exploded a little bit when I had the thought earlier today. Up until then, I had always thought a that E to B would always be a fifth, but then realized that if you're going backwards, it's not actually that.

Thanks for the quick responses! I'll sleep better tonight now. :Beer:
 
Paleo

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Also........

Think of a 12 inch ruler.

If you to up 4 inches from 0, you're 8 inches from the other end.

Only at 6 inches will you be equidistant from both ends.

If you go up 8 inches from 0 you're 4 inches from the other end.

However, measuring from both ends of a ruler doesn't make much sense.


But measuring up and down form both roots in an octave, will.

Think of an octave as 12 half steps.

If I go up 5 half steps from the lower root, I'm 7 half steps below the upper root.

If I go up 7 half steps from the lower root I'm 5 half steps from the upper root.

5 half steps is a P4 and 7 is a P5.

P4 + P5 = octave (5+7=12)

6 half steps (b5) is equidistant from both roots and forms a Tritone with both. (6+6=12)

P5 + P4 = octave (7+5=12)

Now back to Math class.
 
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ChrisGSP

ChrisGSP

Blues Journeyman
I learned it as the "rule of NINE". Going up a second is an octave above going down a seventh (2 + 7 = 9); up a third is an octave above down a sixth (C, D, E = C, B, A, G, F, E); up a 4th is an octave above down a 5th; etc.
Why NINE? there are only seven notes, and eight if you COUNT the octave. Because in counting intervals you always COUNT the starting and ending note, so, as in my examples, the starting note (C) and the ending note (E) both get counted twice, giving you NINE altogether.
Violins are tuned in fifths - G, D, A, E.
Wet and windy here in S-E Aus.
 
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ChrisGSP

ChrisGSP

Blues Journeyman
Rather than trying to edit myself, above, I'll just add this -
Possibly an easier way to explain the "rule of 9" is that an Octave is a second plus a seventh (C, D + D, E, F, G, A, B, C), or a third plus a sixth, or a fourth plus a fifth, etc.

Baritone guitar is interesting - tuned a 5th below "standard" guitar, the second string is F# - get your reading chops around that!!

The Australian classical guitarist Slava Grigoryan recorded the six Bach Cello Suites a couple of years ago, on Baritone Guitar. But because of the many passages of extremely high notes used in the 6th suite, in D Major, he had to play it on standard guitar.
 
snarf

snarf

making guitars wish they were still trees
ChrisGSP said:
The Australian classical guitarist Slava Grigoryan recorded the six Bach Cello Suites a couple of years ago, on Baritone Guitar. But because of the many passages of extremely high notes used in the 6th suite, in D Major, he had to play it on standard guitar.
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Thanks for this!! I've always said that the Cello Suites are my #1 fave pieces of music ever. Years and years ago I actually took a few lessons in the classical style because I heard Christopher Parkening play a couple of selections from the Cello Suites before I even knew what the Cello Suites were. I bet they sound really good on a baritone. I'm off to see if I can find this recording now. :Beer:
 
Paleo

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
ChrisGSP said:
I learned it as the "rule of NINE". Going up a second is an octave above going down a seventh (2 + 7 = 9)
Click to expand...
I'll just add that along with applying the "rule of NINE" when inverting intervals, we also need to invert the quality.

Up a Major 2nd = down a minor 7th. The numbers add to 9 and the qualities are "opposite".

Major intervals become minor and vice versa.

Augmented intervals become diminished and vice versa.

Inverted Perfect intervals will also be Perfect.

Since we were originally dealing with inverting Perfect 4ths and 5ths it wasn't necessary to bring this up at the time.

And if you prefer to work in half-steps you would apply a "rule of TWELVE" which is why I suggested comparing an octave to a 12" ruler.

Working with the Major scale as a reference you have 7 scale degrees, all of them a Major or Perfect interval measured up from the root.

However, each interval can be lowered a half-step, creating 5 more intervals, as measured up from the root, for a total of 12.

You can find all of this in Lesson 5 in Griff's "Guitar Theory Made Useful" course.


And since we're discussing inverting intervals, I suggested we could tie this in with Griff's recent email/blog on Chord inversions.

Without going through all possible inversions, 1st inversions "invert" all the intervals between the root and the other notes.

For example using a 7 chord in root position.

If we move the root up an octave:

The interval between the root and 3rd was a Major 3rd and is now a minor 6th.

The interval between the root and 5 was a Perfect 5th and is now a Perfect 4th.

The interval between the root and b7 was a minor 7th and is now a Major 2nd.

Inverting the root up an octave has also inverted its relationship to the 3, 5 and b7, i.e. creating the "opposite" number from 9 and the "opposite" quality.

Maybe too much information, but for those who want to understand such things, that's what happens.:sneaky:
 
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snarf

snarf

making guitars wish they were still trees
Jalapeno said:
Well Steve, a fourth of a fifth is pretty standard faire at a BGU live event. I guess Snarf needs to attend more of them, then he wouldn't have needed to ask! :LOL:

Eric
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Steve's reply made me laugh, and yours made me snort my lunchtime Dr Pepper all over the screen. Had to clean it off just so I could type this.

And here's to this covid thing going away so we can do the BGU Live events again. :Beer:
 
snarf

snarf

making guitars wish they were still trees
Paleo said:
You can find all of this in Lesson 5 in Griff's "Guitar Theory Made Useful" course.
Click to expand...
I went through GTMU when Griff first put it out. It's the only course I've actually completed start to finish. Interestingly, I decided this past weekend to go through it again. I think that this time through, most of the stuff that left me scratching my head will probably make better sense. And I think I should be able to go through it a little quicker this time. On lesson 2 at the moment, so another week or so before I get to that one. Just need to take time to sit down and keep working on it.
 
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