G Dorian relative

JohnHurley

Rock and Roll
So blues in G ...

Griff did an all access thing on modes tuesday. I can do G major scale in Ionian ( starting on root ) or Dorian ( not starting on root ). That's called parallel I guess.

What notes would be in the G Dorian relative scale? I think I need to start working in some scales using Dorian relative for the blues stuff ...

When you listen to Griff on a video it seems to clear he like hypnotizes you and you think you are understanding it yikes. Then later it is like woah how does that work what frets do you play again?
 

MikeS

Student Of The Blues
Staff member
I'm no expert on modes, but unless I'm way off base they all use the same notes just starting from a different note.
Ionian starts on the G
Dorian Starts on the A (2nd note in the scale)
Phrygian starts on the B (3rd note in the scale)
and so on.

The difference between them is in which not you put emphasis (Tonal Center)
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
So blues in G ...

(Note: Griff was not dealing with Blues in last Tuesday's session.:))

In a Blues in G, relative scales are irrelevant.:confused:

You want to think in terms of parallel scales.

Do you want to play G Major Pentatonic or G Minor Penatonic or G Dorian or G Mixolydian.

All options are scales that start with G.

Using the parallel mode formulas:

G Dorian will have a Bb and F natural (b3 and b7) and G Mixolydian will have an F natural (b7).


You could, however, think in relative terms.

This is where Griff's "Modes Unleashed" course comes it.

It deals with diatonic chord progressions, not Blues progressions.

They are different "animals".

A blues progression isn't even all in one key, much less a mode.

What notes would be in the G Dorian relative scale?

G Dorian is the 2nd mode of F major so you could think F Major from G. (G A Bb C D E F)

G Mixolydian is the 5th mode of C Major so you could think C Major from G. (G A B C D E F)


Either way you approach it, parallel or relative, G Dorian has a b3 & b7 and G Mixolydian has a b7.

Samo samo.

But thinking "relatively" is more "work".

(If you'd like even more work, you could try each of the other 5 modes from both a parallel and relative perspective.:sneaky:)
 
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jmin

Student Of The Blues
This is from Griff’s Modes Unleashed course:

So parallel scales start on the same note, relative scales do not necessarily start on the same note (and usually don’t) but they contain the exact same set of notes.
With that in mind, if you think about it, you could actually start on ANY note of a major scale and it would be relative to that major scale - and we call this idea the “modes” of a scale
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
It's no different than thinking about our pentatonic boxes.

Each box is BOTH a Major and it's relative minor scale. (G Major and Em, for example.)

But over a blues in G we don't care about the relative Em scale.

We want to use G Major and G minor pentatonic.

Parallel, not relative scales.

G minor is relative to Bb Major.

But who thinks of good 'ol Box 1 in G minor as Bb Major starting on G?o_O

Good 'ol box 1 from Bb played "to the left" might be useful if playing a blues in Bb and you wanted Bb Major over the I chord.:)
 
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Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Just a bit of clarification.

Griff discussed modes in Blues in a previous Theory session, 4-15-20, "Intro To Blues Modes Counting" using the BGU Insiders lesson "Intro To Blues Modes" and solo. He also discusses them in his new "Modern Blues Soloing" course.

Last Tuesday's Theory session, 6-2-20, "Modes Formulas Revisited" dealt with a couple of diatonic chord progressions.

He demonstrated going through all the possible parallel modes (using the formulas) that had the same root as the chord he decided was the I or i chord.

No right or wrong here. Only what you decided sounded good to you. :)


And just for the sake of completeness (and my obsessiveness):

Follow the bouncing G

Relative Modes of G Major (Same 7 notes; same key)

G Ionian--------G A B C D E F#
A Dorian--------A B C D E F# G
B Phrygian-----B C D E F# G A
C Lydian--------C D E F# G A B
D Mixolydian--D E F# G A B C
E Aeolian--------E F# G A B C D
F# Locrain------F# G A B C D E


Parallel Modes with G as Tonic (Each mode from a different key)

G Ionian---------The 1st Mode of G Major----- G A B C D E F#
G Dorian--------The 2nd Mode of F Major----- F G A Bb C D E
G Phrygian-----The 3rd Mode of Eb Major ----Eb F G Ab Bb C D
G Lydian--------The 4th Mode of D Major ------D E F# G A B C#
G Mixolydian---The 5th Mode of C Major ------C D E F G A B
G Aeolian-------The 6th Mode of Bb Major -----Bb C D Eb F G A
G Locrian-------The 7th Mode of Ab Major -----Ab Bb C Db Eb F G

Just rearrange each parent scale putting G first.
 
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JohnHurley

Rock and Roll
Thanks Paleo yeah G major pent and G minor pent i got.

It was G Dorian i can try playing that scale thats what i needed notes for thank you!

But then Griff lost me because he didnt choose the one chord for first example ... i think he chose 5?
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
It was G Dorian i can try playing that scale thats what i needed notes for thank you!

Yeah. Dorian may actually be easier to figure out "relatively" because the "parent" Major scale is just a whole step down.

G Dorian has the same notes as F Major. A Dorian has the same notes as G Major. D Dorian, same as C Major, etc.

Using the parallel formula you flat the 3 & 7 of Major scale.

Either way works.


Griff lost me because he didnt choose the one chord for first example ... i think he chose 5?

The first example was D C G C.

Analyzing the progression using Griff's "2 major chords a whole step apart" shortcut you would consider G as the I and C and D as the IV and V.

However, the D "feels" more like the home base. This is the whole point of modes. A tonal center other than the I chord in the Key.

So he considered the D chord as the I chord, which made the C a b7 and the G a 4.

(Rather than D C G C being the V - IV - I - IV in G Major, you would have I - bVII - IV - bVII in "?".)

So he tried all the parallel modes with D as the tonic that also had a 4 and a b7.

Mixolydian would be the "correct" mode determined by analysis, but both Griff and Snarf actually preferred the Dorian, determined by actually playing all options.

Point being that by trying other parallel options you may discover "new" sounds you like besides always playing the "correct" choice you would come up with by analysis alone.:)
 
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JohnHurley

Rock and Roll
Ok so Blues in G i know G maj pent and G minor pent and when to use ... not saying i switch well between but working on it.

Back to the Dorian thing and Griffs demo.

Im still confused can you try solo in G Dorian or do you pick D Dorian as he did for his example?

If using G Dorian is that just on one chord the G while D Dorian could be any of the 1 4 5?

It makes sense sorta when Griff is talking but afterwards its like waking up from a dream it was going so good and then ...
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
Ok so Blues in G i know G maj pent and G minor pent and when to use ... not saying i switch well between but working on it.

Back to the Dorian thing and Griffs demo.

No. Stop the presses! Let's not go back to last Tuesday's session.:eek:

If you're trying to figure out how to use G Dorian in a blues progression, last Tuesday's session won't help you.

That session had nothing to do with blues progressions.

(Other than from about 19:30 to 21:15 in the video when he tells you so.)

It's apples and oranges.

Blues progressions and diatonic progressions.

I think you're getting confused by trying to take the concepts Griff talked about related to diatonic progressions and trying to apply them to blues progressions.

There ain't no connection.

If you want to discuss how to use a Dorian scale in a Blues Progression, nothing Griff said in Tuesday's session will apply.

That calls for a different discussion.

The attached "Cheatsheet" will help with that.:sneaky:
 

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DavidLylis

Aspiring Bluesman
Well. . .I am somewhat of a newbe so . . .I was playing a couple of Chuck Berry licks (go figure) and after this double stop lick there is this descending lick that starts in "box one" but includes notes that are not in "box one". So I says, Hmm. . . Well, it starts in Pattern one of Dorian and then shifts over to Minor Blues scale. (I am reasonable certain Dorian did not cross Chuck's mind, it's where his fingers fell). It got me interested in modes and I started looking at Dorian in detail and getting it under my fingers. This is what I found. (this might be like Columbus discovering America after 300 million people live here) If I play Pattern One starting on A on the 6th string it is minor. If I play the A on the 6th and move up a whole step and play the pattern it is major diatonic. Same with Pattern Two if I shift up two whole steps. Now, I know why, I am just not sure what to do with it. Is that a way to shift between major and minor sounds?
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
If I play Pattern One starting on A on the 6th string it is minor. If I play the A on the 6th and move up a whole step and play the pattern it is major diatonic. Is that a way to shift between major and minor sounds?

You could do that, but it's not the most efficient. You are shifting positions, similar to shifting a minor pentatonic box down 3 frets to play Major, rather than playing both in the same position.

For example, shifting A minor pentatonic Box 1 down 3 frets to play A Major (the "3 fret rule" that Griff discourages), rather than playing Box 2 from the same A on the 6th string (which Griff encourages).

In your example you are shifting between A Dorian and A Major. You're playing A Dorian "pattern 1" from A on the 6th string. Moving it up a whole step and playing the same pattern is B Dorian. However, since you are starting from A before you move up you are playing A Major (Ionian) pattern 2.

You are moving up the fretboard playing in 2 different positions.

You could play A Dorian "Pattern 1" and A Major "Pattern 1" both in the same position from A on the 6th string. (As well as the other 5 parallel modes all in the same position from the same A.)

BTW: The A Dorian pattern you started with is also Pattern 2 of G Major if you start from the G a whole step down. It's all relative. :sneaky:
 
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DavidLylis

Aspiring Bluesman
You could do that, but it's not the most efficient. You are shifting positions, similar to shifting a minor pentatonic box down 3 frets to play Major, rather than playing both in the same position.

For example, shifting A minor pentatonic Box 1 down 3 frets to play A Major (the "3 fret rule" that Griff discourages), rather than playing Box 2 from the same A on the 6th string (which Griff encourages).

In your example you are shifting between A Dorian and A Major. You're playing A Dorian "pattern 1" from A on the 6th string. Moving it up a whole step and playing the same pattern is B Dorian. However, since you are starting from A before you move up you are playing A Major (Ionian) pattern 2.

You are moving up the fretboard playing in 2 different positions.

You could play A Dorian "Pattern 1" and A Major "Pattern 1" both in the same position from A on the 6th string. (As well as the other 5 parallel modes all in the same position from the same A.)

BTW: The A Dorian pattern you started with is also Pattern 2 of G Major if you start from the G a whole step down. It's all relative. :sneaky:

Thank you for commenting. I see many reasons not to do that. I am trying to get my brain around Dorian and how to use it. (and others) I find that the more I play with this stuff my understanding of the fretboard increases.
 

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
I find that the more I play with this stuff my understanding of the fretboard increases.
Yes! Yes! Yes! Keep doing it. The better to discover how everything is related.

The connections you mentioned are all valid and will be useful in various situations.

In blues progressions you could use Dorian in similar situations to when you would use minor pentatonic/blues.

You could use Mixolydian when you want a Major sound similar to when you would use Major pentatonic/blues.

In diatonic progressions you would use Dorian when the progression is in Dorian.

And possibly over other minor (or even Major) mode progressions according to taste.
 
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