Amps Tone Master amps: Deluxe or Twin?

Norfolk Bill

norfolk uk, just knoodling along
That argument is not relevant with a digital modeler that, if it is doing its job, is sending the same harmonic content, compression, distortion etc as the tube amp it is copying.

i didnt mention modelers,,and unless going straight to foh, they need a power amp and speaker and cab therefore the same situation applies

and im no tube snob either, at the moment i have an ac15, several first gen vox valvtronix amps moddeling amps and cabs (still hold up against the new stuff for feel and tone 20yrs on) and a bluguitar amp1 set up.

anyway science is science and the simple fact is tubes sound louder by a long way to the human ear than SS given the cab and speaker are the same
 
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D. R. Miller

Good News Blues
I think it just comes to what works for you. Some use modelers and do real well with them, others try them and don’t. I am one of those who just doesn’t do well with them though I have tried since the first kidney shaped POD. Used to like and use Peavey SS amps and worked well for what I was playing at the time coupled with my RP 5 effects unit. Since turning to more of a blues/rock sound I have found that true tube amps are what I need but they have to be of low enough power to be useful at low volume for where I play mostly and take pedals well. Good ol’ Blues Jr does the trick!!
 

Crossroads

Thump the Bottom
And in the end does it really matter? Do you like the sound you're getting from your equipment? Is it scalable and can you fill a small room without blowing it away, and fill a large room with the same tone? Is it easily portable and reliable?
 

MarkDyson

Blues Hound Wannabe
And in the end does it really matter? Do you like the sound you're getting from your equipment? Is it scalable and can you fill a small room without blowing it away, and fill a large room with the same tone? Is it easily portable and reliable?

I would also ask myself: "Is it portable, as in easy to carry and set up? Would I want to schlep this to an open mic or gig?"

That's part of the attraction of looking at combo amps as opposed to head/cab rigs, and/or rigs that would need me to have some sort of external controller or computing device to manage effectively.

When the audio quality part comes down to my ears, I encounter discussions about (to me) obscure aspects of tone that, honestly, I'm not sure I can even hear if you pointed it out to me. "Sounds good to me" is about as nuanced as my analysis gets. :unsure:

I'm definitely enjoying all the related discussion, though, thanks for the piles of insight from so many directions! :Beer:
 

Iheartbacon

Blues Junior
i didnt mention modelers,,and unless going straight to foh, they need a power amp and speaker and cab therefore the same situation applies

and im no tube snob either, at the moment i have an ac15, several first gen vox valvtronix amps moddeling amps and cabs (still hold up against the new stuff for feel and tone 20yrs on) and a bluguitar amp1 set up.

anyway science is science and the simple fact is tubes sound louder by a long way to the human ear than SS given the cab and speaker are the same

I don’t think you understand the science or you missed what I am saying.

If the same wave form is delivered to the same speaker, at the same level, the perceived and measured SPL level is exactly the same whether it came from a tube or SS. The power in actual watts delivered is also exactly the same and driven by ohms law. This is indisputable hard science.

The psycho acoustic factors that make you perceive one sound to be louder than another when the SPL levels are actually the same are all related to the signal content being different between a tube amp and a traditional analog SS amp. That is completely irrelevant to this thread and discussion because these Fender amps are using digital modeling.

These Fender amps, an Amplifire, Kemper etc. are all trying to reproduce a waveform that matches the real tube amp. Yes, they do it at line level and need to have a power amp increase the output level and drive the speaker, but as long as that power amp doesn’t distort, the resulting amplified signal will be perceived the same way as the tube amps amplified signal. Both signals will go to the speaker with the same harmonic content. The only reasons you need a SS amp with a higher wattage rating than the tube amp are 1) the SS amp must never clip to do the job right, and 2) simple wattage ratings are a generally a bunch of bs and do not always accurately reflect an amps true capability.

None of the current modelers are 100% perfect, but they are close enough that there is no audible difference in the factors that affect perceived volume levels. If you take the digital Tone Master DR and a tube one, and using the same speaker, set them up to be at the same measured SPL, they will also sound like they are equally loud. If you measure the voltage going to the speaker it will be the same and therefore (ohms law) the power delivered will be the same.
 

Norfolk Bill

norfolk uk, just knoodling along
yes i get that all im saying is that tube power sections "sound louder to the human ear" as explained in the post above :),, which is why people say a 15w tube head is louder than say a 30w ss head through the same speaker and cab
 

MarkDyson

Blues Hound Wannabe
IMHO, the best pure amp modeling deal right now is the Atomic Amplifire line. They don’t have all the effects, flexibility and slick interface of the top dogs but the amp tones hang with the big $$$ Axe and Kemper and handily best the Helix. I have not done a side by side yet but I would expect with the right output section it will hand with or beat the Fender.

On a related train of thought, have you any thoughts on the quality of the amp models in the Positive Grid Bias Mini? It's still fairly new (a year or so, now) so I haven't been able to find a ton of deep think on how they stack up compared to the competition. Given I already have a Bias Mini in my stable, that carries some weight. :Beer:
 

Iheartbacon

Blues Junior
On a related train of thought, have you any thoughts on the quality of the amp models in the Positive Grid Bias Mini? It's still fairly new (a year or so, now) so I haven't been able to find a ton of deep think on how they stack up compared to the competition. Given I already have a Bias Mini in my stable, that carries some weight. :Beer:

I have yet to see one in person, so I have nothing meaningful to say about it. It is REALLY hard to evaluate these things without playing one in person as the difference in “feel” isn’t captured in sound clips or videos, and that is a big part of what Atomic is doing very well and where I find Helix is still coming up short. To make it worse, they all seem to have big learning curves and need work before sounding their best, so a brief test and review won’t do any of them justice.
 

Crossroads

Thump the Bottom
On a related train of thought, have you any thoughts on the quality of the amp models in the Positive Grid Bias Mini? It's still fairly new (a year or so, now) so I haven't been able to find a ton of deep think on how they stack up compared to the competition. Given I already have a Bias Mini in my stable, that carries some weight. :Beer:
So I've been using the Mini and Bias Amp2 and Bias FX for over a year now and can offer this.

I started with amp sims (that's they were called back then) in the 80's with the GNX 3, then the Pod then the HD 500 into a Bogner tube amp.
I spent 6 years dialing in my pre amps in my HD500 into the Bogner, others were satisfied with their tones, I wasn't, maybe they were doing something different than me, but I don't think so. I actually liked the tube amp with no pre amp and just pedal sim better.

When Griff played his Kemper at The Hip Kitty, it was a game changer for me. That's when I knew they had it figured out. Finally something, that to me sounded like a tube amp. But it was expensive and I figured something else would come out. By now Line 6 had come out with the Helix, but what I heard in the Helix at the time I did not feel was as convincing as the Kemper. So I waited for 3 years and last year I set out to buy a Kemper. The big 3 at the time were Kemper. Axe Fx and Helix. I spent 3 months comparing tones both online and in person. I should say I never got to play the Axe FX in person.

While I was looking into those 3 PG came out with the mini. I was aware of the head unit and the rack unit, but I started seeing comparisons of Bias with the big 3, some tones I liked the Axe, better but most of the tones I liked Bias Amp better.

This was one of the comparisons I saw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEAgXTPNPEE. In person against the Kemper and the He;ix convinced me.

So I liked the Bias and at price point 25% of the Kemper, 33% of AX8, and 50% of the Helix, , for me it made the most sense.

I also got a copy of Amplitube for free when I bought my Axe I/O. The UI is foreign to me and I still haven't fully explored it, but if I have to use a manual to navigate a UI, when I used to have to review them as part of my job, well enough said. It did however contain a Marshall Pig which I liked, but I went and found one on the Bias Amp tone cloud, replaced the IR and EQed it, and in 10 minutes it is still my favorite amp of all time. Would I rather have a real pig. Hell yeah, but that is pretty much impossible.

So below I will give you the ups and downs as I see them

Kemper - For $2700 for a toaster with a power amp, it would have to sound way better than the others. I don't feel that it does. To get additional amps you either have to own the amp, borrow one to sample, or buy additional amp models. UI is complicated.

Fractal AXE FX8 - Again over $2000 plus a foot controller, and from reading the manual it didn't take long to figure out I was going to be spending a lot of time learning this unit. Sounded real good though.

Helix - After using HD500 for years the UI is pretty much the same. I liked that it had a foot controller, but at least the tones I was hearing both online and in person against PG, it wasn't cutting it for me. Helix Native (plug in) costs extra as well.

Bias - it didn't have a foot controller with integrated effects but it sounded great and they did give me a copy of Bias FX and some Clestion IRs for free. The tones have been the best I have heard, but again that's my ears. In addition

Amp customization that no one else has, change the pre amp tubes power tubes and rectifier tubes, change the bias on the tubes, compression and dynamic tone on the transformer and a bunch more options I haven't even got to in over a year, and I love to tweak. I've used amp match a couple of times, but anything I wanted I was able to find multiple on the tone cloud

Unlimited amps on the tone cloud, no charge. I have no idea how many amps are out there. Amps I ever even knew existed. If you can't find it, you can amp match by recording a live amp or sampling from an audio file. Go on the tone cloud and search for either or both of the Fender models you are looking at , I just stopped at about 30 of either one and there are plenty more. (GIF below). Click on the amp to drill into it, click on preview and play your guitar to see if you like b4 you download it

Likely you will have to tweak it. I usually use 3rd party IRs, the Celestions are OK , the Ownhammers are better but I really like the Redwirez. Check out the free Marshall on the Rdwrez site https://www.redwirez.com/. It is a great IR.

So it takes about 10 seconds to realize whether I like amp or to try another. Download and tweak the gain I want. Then try a few different IRs. Set the parabolic EQ, and most amps take about 10 minutes. I may come back and tweak later as time allows. Outside of the software and processor IR and EQ, are the difference between a great.digital amp, or a fizzy or grainy one.

Runs as a VST plug in so you can record clean and re-amp multiple tracks, with the same amps you have already tweaked in the mini.

Bluetooth amp controls on my Ipad if I want to use them, so I can stand anywhere, and set my amp with a wireless guitar, instead of guessing or asking someone to walk around the room.
When it comes to modeling tones, it is totally subjective and internet wars have been started over it, Some like this, some swear by that, some feel the need to defend their purchase. In the end your ears must decide.

So I would suggest you take the time to understand what you have there Dorothy, and if it doesn't work for you, get something else. But I think if you stand in your own backyard for a while, you might find your heart's desire . :)

Kirk....Out.

Bias.GIF
 
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CaptainMoto

Blues Voyager
At one time in my carrier I traveled the country teaching negotiation skills.
One thing I taught is something referred to as "The Prostitute Effect".
Meaning, the value of goods and services quickly diminishes once the service is provided.
Said another way, the anticipation is often is more valuable the the product.
So Mark, let your anticipation dwindle before you make a purchase.
 

Grateful_Ed

Student Of The Blues
Unless you think that shlepping powered speakers is a hassle, it sounds like you already have a light, compact, portable solution. If the bias mini is just a toy, I still think that $900-$1000 is a lot for a SS amp (hence, no Quilter in my aresnal).
 
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