Tall chord theory

[Steve_Sawyer]

Didn't want to keep Griff hanging around too late on yesterday's session, but I was a little confused still re "tall" chords.

From the research I did today, it appears that I found the answer to my basic question.

For 7th chords, whether the 7th is major or minor (7th or b7), like the 3rd, will vary depending on what chord we're talking about - i.e. I, IV chords will use a major 7th, and ii, iii, V and vi chords will employ a minor 7th (b7). However, for 9th, 11th and 13th chords, those degrees seem to remain constant. It doesn't matter whether you're building a I9 or a vi9 (major or minor chord), the 9th is always the 9th degree of the chord root, never "flatted" or "sharped". Same for the 11th and 13th. So - do I have that right?

However, it appears that while building a "tall" chord beyond the 7th, the 9th, 11th and 13th are always accompanied by a b7, not a Maj7. This raises the question what the rules are for using such "tall" chords - should they not be used over a I or IV chord which are normally Maj7 not Min7? I'm confused here (yeah, nothing new! )

 

[Paleo]

For 7th chords, whether the 7th is major or minor (7th or b7), like the 3rd, will vary depending on what chord we're talking about - i.e. I, IV chords will use a major 7th, and ii, iii, V and vi chords will employ a minor 7th (b7). However, for 9th, 11th and 13th chords, those degrees seem to remain constant. It doesn't matter whether you're building a I9 or a vi9 (major or minor chord), the 9th is always the 9th degree of the chord root, never "flatted" or "sharped". Same for the 11th and 13th. So - do I have that right?

You're on the right track when discussing harmonizing a Major scale and staying within a key.

Note that while the V has a minor 7, it still has a Major 3rd, differentiating it from all other chords.

However, it appears that while building a "tall" chord beyond the 7th, the 9th, 11th and 13th are always accompanied by a b7, not a Maj7.

Of the "Major" chords, only "tall" V chords (Dominant) will have the b7. (And a Major 3rd.)

This raises the question what the rules are for using such "tall" chords - should they not be used over a I or IV chord which are normally Maj7 not Min7?

As you mentioned for 7 chords in a Major key, the I & IV will be Maj 7 (1-3-5-7), the ii,iii & vi will be min7 (1 b3 5 b7),

but the V will be a Dominant 7 (1-3-5-b7).

Last night's discussion involved the ii-V progression.

You could use "basic" triads or any "taller" chords. Your choice. No rules.

"Taller" simply means extended "higher" than a triad.

ii = 1 b3 5 (or b7 or 9 or 11 or 13)

V = 1 3 5 ( or b7 or 9 or 11 or 13)

 

[Paleo]

And check out Lesson 7 in Griff's " Guitar Theory Made Useful (And Easy)"

 

[Randy S]

Didn't want to keep Griff hanging around too late on yesterday's session, but I was a little confused still re "tall" chords.

From the research I did today, it appears that I found the answer to my basic question.

For 7th chords, whether the 7th is major or minor (7th or b7), like the 3rd, will vary depending on what chord we're talking about - i.e. I, IV chords will use a major 7th, and ii, iii, V and vi chords will employ a minor 7th (b7). However, for 9th, 11th and 13th chords, those degrees seem to remain constant. It doesn't matter whether you're building a I9 or a vi9 (major or minor chord), the 9th is always the 9th degree of the chord root, never "flatted" or "sharped". Same for the 11th and 13th. So - do I have that right?

However, it appears that while building a "tall" chord beyond the 7th, the 9th, 11th and 13th are always accompanied by a b7, not a Maj7. This raises the question what the rules are for using such "tall" chords - should they not be used over a I or IV chord which are normally Maj7 not Min7? I'm confused here (yeah, nothing new! )

Tall chords can get very confusing very quickly. If you want to build tall chords in a single key you have to know two things- the chords function and the modal scale formula that goes with that chord. You can then build the chord from the scale. So, in a single key:

I chord- built from Ionian (natural Major) scale
ii chord- built from Dorian scale
iii chord- built from Phrygian scale
IV chord- built from Lydian scale
V chord- built from Mixolydian scale
vi chord- built from Aeolian (natural minor) scale
vii chord- built from Locrian scale

So, over the IV chord you have a #11. Over the iii chord you have a b9. Over the vi chord you have a b13.

As I said it gets complicated quickly.

 

[Paleo]

You can build "tall" chords in a Major key simply by continuing the same process you use to build triads, i.e. leap-frogging through the Major scale.

Only now you'll need a second octave to get the 9, 11 & 13 ("repeats" of the 2, 4 & 6 respectively).

Again, it's all in Lesson 7 of "Guitar Theory Made Useful (And Easy)".

(Another option is to continue to "stack 3rds", a process not "endorsed" by Griff.)

 

[Paleo]

In summary, building on the basic triad (by the same "leap-frogging" process) will yield the following 7th chords, with their possible extensions in parentheses, flatted or sharpened extensions in red:

I Maj7 : 1 3 5 7 (9 11 13).

ii m7 : 1 b3 5 b7 (9 11 13)

iii m7 : 1 b3 5 b7 (b9 11 b13)

IV Maj7 : 1 3 5 7 (9 #11 13)

V7 : 1 3 5 b7 (9 11 13)

vi m7 : 1 b3 5 b7 (9 11 b13)

vii m7b5 : 1 b3 b5 b7 (b9 11 b13)


Which, not surprisingly (?), would also be the "modal" formulas presented in Lesson 13 if all 7 notes of each chord were placed in the same octave.

I'll leave figuring out formulas for stacking 3rds to someone else.

(Who am I kidding. I'll probably do that next.)

 

[Steve_Sawyer]

Okay - thanks guys. I had this all wrong. Went back and did some more analysis, and this is what I came up with. Note that my purpose in all of this is I wanted to work on my arpeggios and wanted to start including the "tall" chord values in my practice - 9th, 11th, 13th. Using the leapfrogging process (and yeah, @Paleo, that's the only way to do it IMO) I realized if you look at all the chords in a major key progression that yeah, the 9th, 11th and 13th are indeed flatted in some cases due to the intervalic difference between the major scale built off of the root of the chord and the "modal" construction of the appropriate chord within the key. In my example below, using the key of "C", I see that I'll have altered (flatted/sharped) 9ths, 11ths and 13ths for the iii, IV and vi chords. Bottom line is yes, Steve, you have to know when to alter the 9th, 11th and 13th degrees depending on what chord you're working with.

Let me know if anyone spots any errors here. Caught (and corrected) one just as I was uploading this image!

 

[Paleo]

Let me know if anyone spots any errors here.

You got it.

And your chart is a really nice way of summing up all the relationships.

You might also "enjoy" figuring out how to name each of the extended chords.

(And that the 3 extensions in each chord actually form their own triad on top of the 7th chord.)

Thanks for starting this thread. I always learn a lot myself, as well.


(Griff has Lesson 13 in "Chord By Chord Blues Soloing" that deals with extended Dominant chord arpeggios.)

Addendum: Oops! One small typo. Row ii, last column, there's an E where a B should be.

 

[Steve_Sawyer]

Thanks - I've taken both of those courses, so I'll go back and take a look at them. And thanks for that catch. I'm re-posting that image again here with the correction.

And yeah - I see that second triad. Interesting pattern. Makes me want to go back and add the diminished vii°!

 

[Randy S]

If "leapfrogging" through the scales (playing through two octaves in 3rds- or every other note) is what you are trying to achieve (like Griff did in the session the other day) I know some cascading patterns that, at least for me, were easier to memorize and execute that trying to learn and play them in a single position position. I have attached them.

 

[Steve_Sawyer]

Thanks, Randy!

Actually "leapfrogging" refers to a technique for building chords from a particular major scale. Each chord tone, from the root up through the 13th is determined by "leapfrogging" - using every other note in the major scale. That yields the I ii iii IV V7 vi vii chords that work with that scale.

This is illustrated in that chart I posted.

But those diagrams will certainly help me in my quest!

What did you use to create that doc? I always have to resort to marking stuff like that by hand, and then I can't read it!

I have PDF's for the blank fretboard which I could import into something like Inkscape or Corel, but the one you did looks great!

 

[Paleo]

It all comes out the same in the wash.

The tables, chart and neck diagrams presented above all convey the same information.

(Just not all in the same Key.)


In C Major:

Leapfrogging in 3rds through the C Major scale from the root, C, is the same as leapfrogging through the C Ionian scale for the I.

Leapfrogging through the C Major scale from the 2nd degree, D, is the same as leapfrogging through the D Dorian scale for the ii.

Leapfrogging through the C Major scale from the 3rd degree, E, is the same as leapfrogging through the E Phrygian scale for the iii.

etc,etc


Introducing Modes just makes it seem more complicated/confusing than it needs to be.

Especially for those whose heads start spinning at the mere mention of the word "Modes".

You can learn all about and understand chord construction and function without ever being introduced to or understanding Modes.

There is a reason why, when studying theory, that you are usually introduced to intervals, scales, chords and progressions before ever broaching the subject.


As always, use whatever works for you.

However, whatever works for you depends on whatever "level" you are at.

(We don't take off points for grammar, do we?)

 

[Randy S]

Thanks, Randy!

Actually "leapfrogging" refers to a technique for building chords from a particular major scale. Each chord tone, from the root up through the 13th is determined by "leapfrogging" - using every other note in the major scale. That yields the I ii iii IV V7 vi vii chords that work with that scale.

This is illustrated in that chart I posted.

But those diagrams will certainly help me in my quest!

What did you use to create that doc? I always have to resort to marking stuff like that by hand, and then I can't read it!

I have PDF's for the blank fretboard which I could import into something like Inkscape or Corel, but the one you did looks great!

The app is called Neck Diagrams- you can Goggle it. Runs around $30. I use it often to make practice aids. The "picture" just works better for me than tabs.

 

[Steve_Sawyer]

The app is called Neck Diagrams- you can Goggle it. Runs around $30. I use it often to make practice aids. The "picture" just works better for me than tabs.

Thanks, Randy!! Sounds like something I must have!!

 

[Steve_Sawyer]

It all comes out the same in the wash.
Introducing Modes just makes it seem more complicated/confusing than it needs to be.

Especially for those whose heads start spinning at the mere mention of the word "Modes".

You can learn all about and understand chord construction and function without ever being introduced to or understanding Modes.

There is a reason why, when studying theory, that you are usually introduced to intervals, scales, chords and progressions before ever broaching the subject.

Oddly enough, I discovered modes from a book "Everything About Guitar Scales". I used to noodle around with the phrygian mode not understanding what it was (easy to stumble on), so when I found the discussion of modes in that book it instantly made sense. Didn't understand the harmony part of the picture until I bought the Modes Unleashed course, though.