16th note straight feel/ 3 note patterns

PCM

PCM

Spring, Texas
BGU Forum Denizens,

Anybody out there got any tips for internalizing rapid tempos (130+) involving 3-note patterns in 16th straight time? I can count, understand theory and written music/tab. However, the 3-note patterns have a tendency to revert to "triplet" counts just by the way they fit under one's fingers at a rapid pace...at least for me anyway.

Much above 110/120 BPM, it becomes near impossible to count verbally and the beat/note counts have to be internalized. I can internalize most everything else at that pace (Crossroads, Johnny B Goode type stuff...130+ BPM) except for 3-note sequences that are naturally drawn to a triplet feel. I've even tried it with a metronome that aurally divides the beat into 4 counts in addition to an accented downbeat...sounds like a buzz saw...not registering with my brain...my fingers revert to "triplet."

I've put out some suggestions for future modules regarding this issue but, in the meantime, I'm up against a wall. Subdividing the beat in your brain is almost the exact same brain activity a professional baseball player uses to hit. It requires quick, digital (the brain is digital) brain "slices" to determine speed, rotation and path of the ball to successfully hit. Internalizing a rapid beat/count involves the same rapid "digitizing" to keep your brain ahead of your fingers.

Everybody is different and there is a physical limit to which a person's brain can internalize a particular beat/count...depends a lot on DNA in addition to practice. I'm trying to determine if I'm approaching that. Any practice suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

PCM
Houston, Texas
 
PCM

PCM

Spring, Texas
PS...I'm currently going through PSTM and the 2 speed builders at GH's suggestion...making good progress. However, the 3-note sequences in fast, straight time, played as 16th's is still a "brain roadblock."
 
J

Jalapeno

Student Of The Blues
PCM said:
my fingers revert to "triplet."
Click to expand...
This screams "SLOW DOWN" while building some new muscle memory.

If you are reverting to triplets at 130, what about 128? Still triplets, what about 120? Still triplets? What about 110? 16ths ok at 110? Then spend a lot of time at 110 then gradually, maybe a week at a time, increase the speed. As soon as the triplets return back off a notch and spend more time there. It's the only way I've ever found to break bad habits. (It is a bad habit you've developed)

I've never seen a batting coach start kids off with curve balls at 85 mph, if you get the connection. :)

Eric
 
Dr. Ron

Dr. Ron

Nuthin’ But The Blues!
Been working on one of Griff's funk solo's with 1/16 note straight feel for several months. I just can't keep up
eventually lose the beat. I have reverted to using hammer-on's and pull-off's which I am getting better at. I play
the solo now with a combination of picking and h/o"s &p/o's.
 
PCM

PCM

Spring, Texas
Jalapeno said:
This screams "SLOW DOWN" while building some new muscle memory.

If you are reverting to triplets at 130, what about 128? Still triplets, what about 120? Still triplets? What about 110? 16ths ok at 110? Then spend a lot of time at 110 then gradually, maybe a week at a time, increase the speed. As soon as the triplets return back off a notch and spend more time there. It's the only way I've ever found to break bad habits. (It is a bad habit you've developed)

I've never seen a batting coach start kids off with curve balls at 85 mph, if you get the connection. :)

Eric
Click to expand...
Point well taken.

What's frustrating is that everything else appears to be improving on a gradual, upward slope with the exception of those pesky 3-note patterns in 16th straight time. I've been working on it fairly consistently over the last 45+ years of playing and learning. That particular skill (3-notes/16th time) has tripped me up since the beginning.

I just got back from a guitar lesson today with a guy I've been doing guitar lessons with for the last 25 years. He said I was having trouble "rotating the starting note on the downbeats" and that it wasn't an uncommon problem as one tests the limits of one's current ability. We started an exercise of playing the same written sequence in 8th note time at the same cadence (130BPM)...it worked out fine because it essentially cut the speed requirement in half. We then went to 16th time at half the original BPM (65BPM)...worked out fine again all the way up to 120BPM. Then we moved into the 125+BPM range...out came the triplets. Frustrating!!!

Check out the file I uploaded. It is one of 3 files from a very old published solo from GH over 10 years ago. Take special note of bars 14 and 15...that's where I fall apart. Everything else runs pretty smoothly at the pace listed (132BPM).

I am dialing it back a bit. Thanks for the help.

PCM
Houston, Texas
 

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PCM

PCM

Spring, Texas
Dr. Ron said:
Been working on one of Griff's funk solo's with 1/16 note straight feel for several months. I just can't keep up
eventually lose the beat. I have reverted to using hammer-on's and pull-off's which I am getting better at. I play
the solo now with a combination of picking and h/o"s &p/o's.
Click to expand...

I completely understand. Rapid, 16th note straight time is exceptionally difficult for me...more so if little nuances are added (3-note sequences, string skipping, 3-notes per string, etc.). My brain has a very tough time keeping up.

Several years ago, GH told a story about being frustrated with strict, alternate picking in his early years and eventually went to a combination of slurs and AP that suited him much better. It was an epiphany. After that story, I decided to do what works best for me and leave the strict alternate picking to the Bonamassa types.

PCM
Houston, Texas
 
J

Jalapeno

Student Of The Blues
I inadvertently did it to myself when I wrote this song for a project. The melody at the end is descending 16th notes played in groups of three. I remember working on that for quite a while to get it down for the recording. And to make it more fun I decided to put in a harmony. :rolleyes: It looks so innocuous on paper, doesn't it? :) I don't know the tempo but I think its around 100 bpm which is a lot slower than you're trying to get to.

Anita's Theme from the project "That Darn Herschel"

Eric
 
PCM

PCM

Spring, Texas
Jalapeno said:
I inadvertently did it to myself when I wrote this song for a project. The melody at the end is descending 16th notes played in groups of three. I remember working on that for quite a while to get it down for the recording. And to make it more fun I decided to put in a harmony. :rolleyes: It looks so innocuous on paper, doesn't it? :) I don't know the tempo but I think its around 100 bpm which is a lot slower than you're trying to get to.

Anita's Theme from the project "That Darn Herschel"

Eric
Click to expand...
Very nice! (and very similar in sequence)

I tried to upload GH's video of the passage in question. However, the file is too large. If you happen to have a copy of his "First go at YouTube," take a gander at bars 14 and 15...that's where my timing goes straight to Hades. Everything else works out on most occasions.

PCM
Houston, Texas
 
PCM

PCM

Spring, Texas
Well....I dialed it back over the last week or so and discovered something...dialing it back does make things a bit easier. However, I also discovered that my 16th note, strict alternate picking articulation limit is about 95 BPM...substantially deficient based upon years. I crash and burn if the speed or articulation (16th triplets, 32nd's, etc.) requirements are any faster than that.

I subscribe to GH's position that "guitar DNA" will likely determine "slurring" or alternate picking propensity. I also got a decent evaluation this week from a good instructor that my "deficiency" is likely caused from ingrained bad habits early on in my learning process and a distinct lack of any rhythmic ease. Unfortunately, he also stated that it might be a very slow process to mitigate those bad habits and minimal rhythm based upon age (69). Additionally, it would be worthwhile to practice at it consistently for a period of time since 95 BPM keeps your "comfort range" for blues-type material a bit small.

So here I sit..."Mary Had a Little Lamb" with a slow metronome and alternate picking PSTM up to 90-95 BPM before falling off a cliff. It's a worthwhile exercise. It is what it is. :):Beer:
 
PCM

PCM

Spring, Texas
Dr. Ron said:
Been working on one of Griff's funk solo's with 1/16 note straight feel for several months. I just can't keep up
eventually lose the beat. I have reverted to using hammer-on's and pull-off's which I am getting better at. I play
the solo now with a combination of picking and h/o"s &p/o's.
Click to expand...
Any luck/improvement with the 16th note solo?

For about 15 minutes per day, I've been religiously doing alternate picking exercises for the last couple of weeks. Single note 16th's go over a cliff at about 120BPM. Multi-note 16ths die at 95BPM. Small improvement in the beginning, kind of plateaued the last couple of days. I simply can't subdivide above 120BPM or subdivide and coordinate above 95BPM at this point in time. I suspect it is going to be small, incremental improvements as I keep at it. Frustrating and fun at the same time. Pressing on.....

Hope you stay with your solo...keep posting.

PCM
Houston, TX
 
Paleo

Paleo

Student Of The Blues
PCM said:
I also discovered that my 16th note, strict alternate picking articulation limit is about 95 BPM...substantially deficient based upon years.
Click to expand...
Just thought I'd point out that in Griff's "Classic Rock Speed Builders" course 16th note triplets are in Group 3 and the highest tempo in Level 3 is 90 BPM.
 
PCM

PCM

Spring, Texas
Paleo said:
A few thoughts regarding measures 14-16 in Griff's solo:

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/hypp5uh06kib7me/Youtube.mp4?dl=0

I couldn't count this at all before I did the counting in the other examples I did in my "3-note" threads.

So thanks for the incentive.:)
Click to expand...
Mr. Paleo, you are indeed, a gentleman and a scholar. Far, far above and beyond the call of duty. I certainly hope to meet you at some BGU function in the future before time runs out.

I see your post and then watched you count to "6" except in 16th note cadence. That was the "lightbulb" for me. Once I thought of two groups of three and counted to "6" it started to fit under my fingers much, much better.

I can slur it fairly well (just now) at very close to the published speed...it is rather speedy at 132BPM ( and that is a rather young man in the video :)) ...can't touch it strictly alternate picking but I'm continuing to work on it as well as the exercises.

Thanks for all the help.

PCM
Houston, TX
 
PCM

PCM

Spring, Texas
Paleo said:
Just thought I'd point out that in Griff's "Classic Rock Speed Builders" course 16th note triplets are in Group 3 and the highest tempo in Level 3 is 90 BPM.
Click to expand...
16th note triplets are exceptionally speedy (twice the speed of 8th note triplets) at most BPM ranges...I don't know how some of those well-known metal shredders do it...got to be some sort of "alien" intervention...o_O:)

PCM
Houston, TX
 
Griff

Griff

Vice Assistant General Manager
Staff member
For me, the straight 3 note passages were a matter of memorizing which note falls on the downbeat. Then I'm no longer really listening to every subdivision.

It goes back to the idea of what I call "marks," where you pay particular attention to what note falls on the downbeat as you practice at comfortable tempos.
 
PCM

PCM

Spring, Texas
Griff said:
For me, the straight 3 note passages were a matter of memorizing which note falls on the downbeat. Then I'm no longer really listening to every subdivision.

It goes back to the idea of what I call "marks," where you pay particular attention to what note falls on the downbeat as you practice at comfortable tempos.
Click to expand...

Thanks for responding @Griff. :)

I'm incorporating everything in an attempt to get up to speed (PSTM, Speed Builders, etc.).

I've been practicing that old solo at about half speed (65BPM) and everything works well. I can get up to the published speed (132BPM) and everything works out well (most of the time) except for bars 14 and 15 which are still car wrecks...starts going off the rails at 110-120BPM. I'm using your 5X5 (Rock A) as an adjustable track.

Overcoming bad habits and old learning is a laborious pain...still pressing. Thanks. :):Beer:

PS Just out of curiosity, what was the specific track you used in that solo?
 
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